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- ccm911 - 03-18-2008
Isn't it a shame that you don't have to pass an intelligence test before entering the voting booth?
- ccm911 - 03-18-2008
And the beat still goes on......
Are they retarded? This is bad guys. A band aid that just continues to feed an unrealistic market?
Dow spikes 420 points on rate cut
Wall Street surges, with blue-chip indicator seeing its best day in 5-1/2 years as investors hail central bank decision to cut rates by 3/4 of a percentage point.
- Darren - 03-18-2008
Wellardmac wrote:
Quote:Yup, it all starts with education. The reason we have to bring in so many technical people from overseas is because we don't generate a high enough number and quality here.
In what field are you talking about? I can't count the number of H1 people I have fired because they didn't know half of the things they claimed to know. One guy I didn't hire had things on his resume that I actually did at the project that he claimed he did!! That was funny...
Many steal/borrow from each others resumes and are totally dishonest about what they know how to do. Sometimes the only way to find out is to hire them but in many companies it takes so long to hire someone that its impossible or difficult to get a replacement and still stay on a timeline. I'm self-employed, and one guy I hired actually told me that I should "get H1 guys from India and get them staffed for things they don't know how to do because they will learn on the job". Sorry, I don't do business like that!
Recruiters add to this problem in IT -- they are all looking for specific skills rather than broad knowledge and experience. Sometimes the best Actuate developer has no experience in Actuate but is an expert VB programmer. This is killing IT because experience and knowledge are valued less than skills.
I don't see foreign education systems as superior at all. And one thing that we learn in this country from a young age is how to think of creative solutions. Also the rogue tv cop mentality of get the job done whatever it takes. Other countries don't value these things as much as we do. In many cultures thinking creatively and "out of the box" is actually a negative thing.
As an example, I used to work with many Chinese programmers who developed ASP (web) code. Usually they would cut and paste code from other websites, like everyone does, but often there would be what I call appendix code, code that made sense originally but makes no sense in the new program and is unusued. I would say "take it out, it serves no purpose" and often the answer I got was "it works fine, I should just leave it". This is a cultural difference and it is an example of the types of situation I have to deal with and manage on a daily basis. Every culture is different and with the globalization of many industries, you have to know how to interact and communicate with people from other specific cultures and languages.
There is always a trade-off, many of the H1 people I have worked with make up for the communication gap by working harder and because they are very smart.
I also know a few people who grew up here, programmers, who are literally, no exaggeration, as productive as an average team of 25 programmers.
- porsh111214 - 03-18-2008
My grand parents came here from Greece about 1915. My father came here in 1939.
My grandpaents had a candy store and owned the corner of 34 & Walnut. Their son and my uncle became a Wharton Grad. My Mother attended Philly Academy for piano and became a teacher. My father had a restaurant in Germantown.
My grandmother and father would have me read the funnys and DC Comics outloud so they could learn the vernacular.
Today I have to say NO Hable Espaniol to my BANK TELLER and every on every 800 prompt. We are a nation of Babel. The glue that got the USA thru dustbowls, wars and depressions is gone. The thought of national pride IS gone and entitlement is IN.
- emayer - 03-18-2008
I would only add to the preceding post that in Europe vocational education is treated with near equal social respect and academic demands to that of a University education. The impetus for rigorous and structured education in the trades can be traced to the Middle Ages and explains their advantages over the typical American worker today. It isn't that the Europeans work harder- just smarter.
- ccm911 - 03-18-2008
Darren, I think you are a relly cool person.
But in an earlier thread you cried about the treatment of black folks being treated so unfairly. You implied that racism is bad, and that while growing up, you felt the sting of said racism.
So why are you now practicing the same sort of prejudice towards those of Indian descent?
If you are going to join in our banter, please do not talk out of both sides of your mouth.
Are you saying it is OK to bash Indians, but not our Black bretheren?
Please take a side.
- Darren - 03-18-2008
ccm911 wrote:
Quote:Darren, I think you are a relly cool person.
But in an earlier thread you cried about the treatment of black folks being treated so unfairly. You implied that racism is bad, and that while growing up, you felt the sting of said racism.
So why are you now practicing the same sort of prejudice towards those of Indian descent?
If you are going to join in our banter, please do not talk out of both sides of your mouth.
Are you saying it is OK to bash Indians, but not our Black bretheren?
Please take a side.
Sides are not really the issue, as you well know. There is no side, there are only issues and opinions.
My points are workplace observations. And I'll extend it to other more common topics, maybe to my own dis-benefit.
About 6 years or so ago companies started very aggressively pushing diversity training. I've taken these courses a dozen times because I change clients that often. Diversity training teaches tolerance -- and tolerance isn't the real issue that needs to be solved. The real issue is understanding.
Tolerance is Muslim people at work can go to a special room and pray East to Mecca a couple of times per day. That is acceptable in the American workplace, and acceptable to their religion.
That isn't understanding.
My point is better understood with male/female relationships in the workplace. Companies have had classes to tell us that men and women are the same, male and female are equal. Equal sure, the same, never.
I can say "Julie your hair is pretty today" but I can't say "Chris your hair is pretty today"
Men and women will never be the same, just like people growing up here will never be like people growing up in India.
Just like you'd never answer to your wife "yes you look fat in those pants" you'd also be careful to tell someone from India "you need to get this done by Monday" not it would "be a good idea to get it done by Monday". These ambiguous messages mean different things to people of different cultures.
On any given day I work from home, talking to people in Kalamazoo MI (real place actually), NYC, Sandwich UK, Brussels, Costa Rica and India. That's every day! Communication is an issue, and that isn't racism!
(edited for poor spelling
- Wellardmac - 03-19-2008
emayer wrote:
Quote:I would only add to the preceding post that in Europe vocational education is treated with near equal social respect and academic demands to that of a University education. The impetus for rigorous and structured education in the trades can be traced to the Middle Ages and explains their advantages over the typical American worker today. It isn't that the Europeans work harder- just smarter.
Exactly! It makes for a big difference in quality of training and attitiude towards blue collar workers - it's not a second class or looked down upon as it can be here. It makes a huge difference in the culture.
- Wellardmac - 03-19-2008
ccm911 wrote:
Quote:Darren, I think you are a relly cool person.
But in an earlier thread you cried about the treatment of black folks being treated so unfairly. You implied that racism is bad, and that while growing up, you felt the sting of said racism.
So why are you now practicing the same sort of prejudice towards those of Indian descent?
If you are going to join in our banter, please do not talk out of both sides of your mouth.
Are you saying it is OK to bash Indians, but not our Black bretheren?
Please take a side.
I have to admit that I detected the irony in that also.
- dmano - 03-19-2008
Quote:Darren wrote: style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
.
Tolerance is Muslim people at work can go to a special room and pray East to Mecca a couple of times per day. That is acceptable in the American workplace, and acceptable to their religion.
Lets go pray then blow someone up.
Kind of like the wonderful brake that smokers get to use 3 to 4 times a day. If you do not smoke you don't get that brake, that is not right.