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+--- Thread: Financial Shakeup this weekend (/showthread.php?tid=1090)
- emayer - 03-31-2008
I don't usually take part in such matters, but I'm glad to have been involved in this dialogue if for no reason than to question and reaffirm my beliefs in this nation and impressions of those leading it.
It is apparant that the current path this country is following will ultimately lead to its demise, and as a young parent this is what is making me fearful of what lies ahead. One cannot help but feel that with the political stagnation in Washington that that the die has been cast.
We all agree that part of the solution lies in the introduction of additional political voices in the Chambers of power. It is easy for us to harp on the state of things but as contibuting citizens and parents the questions I have are: What will it take for the formation of additional parties? Is the system so entrenched that it is no longer feasible? Who would finance such a movement against the established? Is the average American citizen cognizant of the path we are on and willing to accept the personal and financial sacrifices necessary to reprioritze this country?
- AMoore - 03-31-2008
Wellardmac wrote:
Quote: Wouldn't it be better to educate people to be better parents than institute draconian measures such as the old tried and discredited ones that you advocate?
This would of course require the use of tax dollars for the benefit of those who don't pay taxes. Catch 22? No, just a necessary by product of a civilized society where not everyone has the same resources. . . financial and cerebral.
- catchacab - 03-31-2008
AMoore wrote:
Quote:This would of course require the use of tax dollars for the benefit of those who don't pay taxes. Catch 22? No, just a necessary by product of a civilized society where not everyone has the same resources. . . financial and cerebral.
In the short term, expenditures would increase. But, in the long term, it would actually save tax dollars. I look at this as an investment in our future. Medicaid/medicare, we spend a lot of money on it, but it doesn't do anything that strengthens our country. To me we are just throwing away money here.
- Wellardmac - 03-31-2008
emayer wrote:
Quote:We all agree that part of the solution lies in the introduction of additional political voices in the Chambers of power. It is easy for us to harp on the state of things but as contibuting citizens and parents the questions I have are: What will it take for the formation of additional parties? Is the system so entrenched that it is no longer feasible? Who would finance such a movement against the established? Is the average American citizen cognizant of the path we are on and willing to accept the personal and financial sacrifices necessary to reprioritze this country?
There are a number of things that are barriers to this - not insurmountable, but barriers regardless.
i) The founding fathers believed that the electorate were stupid and not to be trusted to elect their own government, hence the creation of the electoral college. Overcoming that barrier is real and hard to do, as small states have a vested interest in the status quo.
ii) Washington doesn't want to change - why should they? this is a cushy gig for those that are elected.
iii) Big business doesn't want change - having a government more accountable to the electorate, that's horrifying - why would we want to dilute the influence of those with money?
iv) The average American citizen doesn't care, so why should the government. If the people are willing to be governed like lemmings, then they should be treated as such.
What will it take to affect change?
i) The average american has to start caring about what happens around them - they need to care about current affairs, they need to question what they're being told and spoonfed by the media and start asking questions.
ii) Once they're asking questions they need to start holding their government accountable - get involved in the process - pay attention, make your voice heard by letting your representatives know what you think. Believe me, my representatives know me well - write to them and let them know your feelings - sign petitions. - only the stupid ignore the will of those that elected them - ask Rick Santorum. I'd frequently get responses from him along the lines of "I disagree with what you said, and here's why I'm going to do what I think is right". I saw him on television this weekend - he's a pigheaded dufus that still doesn't get it and doesn't deserve to hold public office again.
If those things happen, then this country will be radically different. If the the electorate are engaged, voicing their opinion, and it is being ignored, then the electorate will be primed to vote for a third party - they should be so enraged that they're being ignored that another Ross Perot could come along and affect change. Until the population is enraged with the elected officials that claim to represent them, then there will be no change. Until the average American starts to pay attention, then they don't deserve change.
Ideally, the system should be one where each vote is counted and officials are elected based on proportional representation - then the will of the people is heard and heeded. That's not going to happen without a change to the Constitution and I really don't see that happening any time soon.
- Wellardmac - 03-31-2008
AMoore wrote:
Quote:Wellardmac wrote:Quote: Wouldn't it be better to educate people to be better parents than institute draconian measures such as the old tried and discredited ones that you advocate?
This would of course require the use of tax dollars for the benefit of those who don't pay taxes. Catch 22? No, just a necessary by product of a civilized society where not everyone has the same resources. . . financial and cerebral.
Are we talking education or enforced sterilization here?
- Wellardmac - 03-31-2008
BTW, we received many compliments for this thread at breakfast yesterday.
The feedback I got was the readers found the conversation to be interesting and fun so keep up the good work!
![[Image: thumbup.gif]](http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/graemlins/thumbup.gif)
- catchacab - 03-31-2008
Wellardmac wrote:
Quote:There are a number of things that are barriers to this - not insurmountable, but barriers regardless.
i) The founding fathers believed that the electorate were stupid and not to be trusted to elect their own government,
I agree!
I stated it earlier in this thread, and here it is again. If one can't manage their own affairs why should they be permitted to take action that will affect others (voting). I believe that many citizens do not have the capacity to make an intelligent informed decision on who should govern. The "right" to vote, should not be a "right", but a privilege that is earned based on interest in government, knowledge of history and current affairs, and general intellect. Just because you were born here doesn't mean that you should be able to vote. Many immigrants have a better understanding and knowledge of history, our government and current events than those who were born here. To be eligible to vote one should have to take and pass a test periodically.
Although elected by a majority of voters, our government does not represent, respect or care for those who elected them, nor do they represent the average American. The true constituents that our government is responsible to is special interests, which includes the well funded lobbyists and big business. We are truly enduring "taxation without representation" If our founding fathers were here today, they would probably advocate Revolution. The amazing thing is that a country that was founded by a Revolution, has outlawed it.
A way to show the elected officials how upset the public is with them, is to vote against the current political party occupying the position. For example: Vote Democratic for President, but if your Representative is Democratic, then vote Republican. If everyone who was unhappy with government did this, almost every Representative would be a freshman in the new Congress, almost 1/3 of the Senators would be freshman too. If they didn't get the hint, after one election cycle, in 2 years we could vote out an entire House of Rep, and another 1/3 of the Senate. One should do this for local and state wide races too.
A grass root campaign on "VOTE THE BUMS OUT!" could be easily done by emailing your friends and have them email their friends, etc.... A website could be started, the correct filings done, and funds could be raised to have advertising for "VOTE THE BUMS OUT!"
This not be an organization supporting any political party, but an organization helping to change the United State's Government and our country for the better.
I have to go now, the Secret Service, ATF, and FBI are knocking down my door right now (just kidding).
- emayer - 04-01-2008
I'm glad to hear that the thread has generated interest, and would encourage evryone to contribute. Undoubtedly, there are some great ideas lurking out there!
I follow the gist of the prior responses but must comment that the founding father's created the electoral college to ensure proportional State representation. If this did not exist, national elections would be determined by the States of CA, NY, FL, and TX.
Of all the feedback I found the "Vote the Bums Out!" campaign to be the most plausible to implement. (I think this is a great internet project for Wayne, can we get a vote!) We saw this during the past PA elections following the secretive salary increases. As it stands now, I'm not convinced there is enough public outrage against the Federal gov't. The Feds manage to put forth a few crumbs periodically to keep the herd at bay...
If our candidates really wanted to implement "change" that would lead to a durable foundation to the regrowth of this country they should consider the following unpopular measures: (feel free to add/comment!)
Restructure/ simplification of tax code with incentives for saving.
Eliminate the pathetic stimulus package (too late).
No intervention in stabilizing the mortgage crisis. Allow free market forces to play this out. A harsh and costly lesson indeed on the scale of the Great Depression, but one that will likely strengthen individual's and governmental fiscal responsibility moving forward.
Review all international trade agreements to ensure equity/ compliance. Impose sanctions as necessary.
National preventative care coverage. Concept is not to provide universal healthcare, but to have a salary based contribution to ensure that all citizens have access to routine yearly screening/ examination. This will ultimately lead to a healthier populace and decrease the overall burden on the healthcare system which is presently based on treating in a reactive manner rather than a procative/ preventative model.
True border security. Enforce exisiting immigration statutes.
Mandate English as the official national language for all government activities. Disallow government funding for non-English speaking charter schools.
Reprioritize education. Emphasize the sciences and mandate the learning of a second language (early in schooling) with proficiency benchmarks. Consider the elimination of local control of schools with consolidation perhaps at a State level. Incentivize the creation of specialty "trade" colleges to establish a more educated workforce.
Consider the creation of industrial zones with loosening of some environmental restrictions in these dedicated areas. Alternatively, taxation of industries within these areas can be reduced to assist in environmental compliance. Geographic consolidation will permit companies to collectively address environmental issues further reducing cost burden.
Aggressive pursuit of alternative energies including the reintroduction of nuclear power.
-I apologize for the length of this message, I jotted these ideas down as a basis for discussion realizing that further refinement is needed... See you all at GITMO!
- catchacab - 04-01-2008
The outrage that can result in voting them out is there it is just misguided. Four years ago and then again two years ago the Iraq conflict helped to increase the democrats numbers in congress, the rage was focused on the republicans. The dems promised to get us out of Iraq, but yet we are still there.
The problem with our govt. is not democrat or republican, but the way business is done. A handful on freshman congressmen are elected at each election cycle, but even if the majority party is changed, the powers in congress are those who have been there a long time, and serve on the important committees and hold chairmanship of various committees. These congressmen determine what bills will make it to the floor of congress.
To change the way business is done, we need, not to vote for a party, nor for specifics of what the politicians are running for. They rarely fulfill their campaign promises. What we need to do is show our elected officials we want to be represented, and all who are in power, who have generally catered to special interests, now need to be removed. If the existing Senators don't realize this when all incumbents are voted out, then their turn will come in 2 or 4 years.
It is time for govt to change, the way business is done. A democratic or republican win hasn't and will not do that, voting against all of the current government will.
- dmano - 04-01-2008
Wellardmac wrote:
Quote:You make a good point in that discipline has been eroded. Corporal punishment is not illegal, despite what some do-gooders would like to believe. Without discipline kids cannot learn boundaries and all hell breaks loose.
As for giving drugs to kids to make them behave - that's just reprehensible. There's no excuse for avoiding the issue by turning kids into zombies. Discipline is the answer.
Now, I fundamentally disagree with the comment on the teenage cancer patient. He's 16 years old and old enough to understand cause, effect, and consequence. If he wants to follow that path, then that's fine in my book, who are we to tell him what to do with his body? You wouldn't do it to a 17 or 18 year old, why would you do it to a 16 year old? By the time the case went to court he was 17, going on 18, is it still acceptable to tell him what's best for him? We used to have kids working and having families at that age - it's only our current society that wraps them in cotton wool and refuses to let them grow up.
Parents today have no back bone. They let their kids do anything, touch anything, brake anything, take anything, do as they please and so on. I hate going out to dinner any more or breakfast. Kids running around screaming in a restaurant is unacceptable. I will not eat in a restaurant were there are families with children present. Parents today are scared to be parents of the past.
I won't spank Johnny that's not right. I will put him in time out. Real smart..... a lot of good that did.
The generation that is on this forum, I am sure your parents beat your ass when you did something wrong. I know mine did. I am glad they did as it instilled values in me that have lasted till this day. I would like to take a vote and see how many of you compared to the kids of today, were having sex at age 10, smoking pot at 10, taking drugs at age 10, killing at age 10, stealing at age 10. All these things the kids of today are doing and the parents are doing nothing about it. I am not talking poor inner city kids either. I am talking well to do, main line type family's. Why in the hell does a 6 year old need a cell phone? Why in the hell do parents drive their kids to school when there is a perfectly good bus that will pick them up. I walked to school about a 1.5 miles, today they get picked up, no wonder little Johnny has a fat ass.
Children of today have no values. They do as they please, when they want to.
Maybe the parents need a good stiff kick in the ass like the good old days.