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+--- Thread: What Are your thoughts? (/showthread.php?tid=1183)
- Terry - 06-04-2008
There are a lot of good comments but all relate primarily to experienced drivers who can pick and choose among different tracks. I'm addressing the vacancies in Green and Blue where such considerations should not predominate. And maybe that is a reflection of the choices we are making at the top of the pyramid. I'm glad when I was in the lower groups that there were instructors who went to Jeff despite its deficiencies, and I hope that today's students will feel the same.
- Darren - 06-04-2008
Don't forget that PCA events in general are much much cheaper than other groups. I think a major factor iin the lack of registration in the lower run groups is that we aren't getting the influx of new people buying Porsches. Nobody is now taking out home equity loans and buying Porsches!
All things being equal, believe me, I do DE with several clubs and our instruction is hands down better than most/all. I was at a NASA NE event last weekend, where HPDE group 2 (2nd highest level out of 5) is uninstructed. I had a great event, but there were guys soloing with a couple of events under their belt, and spinning whenever they had the chance. More than once I recommended that "X car" needs an instrutor with him. Please debate me on this, our instruction is just better.
We have the best value -- the restriction is you "need" a Porsche (well not really, but you know what I mean). These days there are many great options for cars to take to the track that are cheaper and perform really well. I drove my students' 335i last weekend, 386 hp, 454 ft lbs of torque!!!
As an instructor, the new students I get when I instruct at a NASA event are very very different than at PCA events. New people at NASA events are generally much younger, and they know turn in, apex, track out, sway bars, spring rates, etc....
Grassroots Motorsports (I think it was that magazine) did an article a little while ago where they matched a Mini-van against a 356, and the Mini-van kicked it's ass. These days almost any car you can buy handles really well compared to the old cars.
Our club is very friendly to non-Porsches, and we have drivers at all levels driving non-Porsches. I think we should be reaching out to people we know, who are good for the club, who may not have Porsches but who are people we want to have around, and letting them know what we have to offer.
- catchacab - 06-04-2008
I believe there are multiple reasons that have been addressed earlier in this thread.
1. Father's day does occur during the event.
2. Gas prices
3. New tracks coming on line that are closer, and appear to be better
4. Future economic outlook
5. Overhearing drivers in the upper run groups talking unfavorably about the various tracks
6. There are more events available to drive in than in years past.
7. Some may choose to run a different track with perceived better layout, and better amenities with another club than run with their home region.
8. Some DE fees are getting expensive. (Should DE income fund other club activities that members do not want to pay for?)
We need more of the Glen! It is farther, but it is good!
On a personal note, my track schedule is falling apart! It seems that my wife is taking me away for my B-day (our Glen event, I want her to pick another weekend but her parents aren't available to babysit, Damn in-laws! I will boycott all remaining holiday function held at their house for the remainder of the year). Due to an impending purchase, it seems that I will need to work more
. Professional and personal obligations are eating more into my fun time (track time).Some dream of Jeannie, I dream of Glen...
...Watkins Glen that is.
I miss you guys.
- Darren - 06-04-2008
Mike Andrews wrote:
Quote: And add on top of that the racing thing and fathers day and a holiday or two and DE gets impacted.
At the instructor level, only in PCA do you have to pay. If budget is an issue, its easier (for me!) to decide to instruct at other clubs. The fact that we still get instructors coming is a testament to how much many of us like the club. Like you for instance Mike, I see all the work you've done over the years and that is for love of the club, and we all appreciate it!!!!
- Darren - 06-04-2008
catchacab wrote:
Quote:3. New tracks coming on line that are closer, and appear to be better
5. Overhearing drivers in the upper run groups talking unfavorably about the various tracks
Am I missing something? Didn't green JUST fill up for the Glen?? Isn't blue still open?? When has that EVER happened????
It has NOTHING to do with the track, there is something bigger going on.
- michael lang - 06-04-2008
Darren wrote:
Quote:catchacab wrote:Quote:3. New tracks coming on line that are closer, and appear to be better
5. Overhearing drivers in the upper run groups talking unfavorably about the various tracks
Am I missing something? Didn't green JUST fill up for the Glen?? Isn't blue still open?? When has that EVER happened????
It has NOTHING to do with the track, there is something bigger going on.
Darren, it seems to be that all of us that are involved in DE are all advancing up in run groups and that it appears to be a decline in new driver participation. If we don't have new drivers coming in, the lower run groups will thin out as those of us in Blue/Green will get promoted. Which ends up killing a program. It's the same for any other business, organization, military, etc... there always has to be new people always coming in for any program to survive.
- ccm911 - 06-05-2008
Good comments, all. But the reason I wrote the question is due to the lack of a wait list. I mean, we would literally have a ten person wait list from day one. Now that is a really big difference from "Green is full for the Glen". I mean, we would fill EVERY event.
Were we great marketers? Hardly. When you have a captive and willing audience, there really is no marketing. We just had a great program(and still do from the reports I receive back). The instruction was second to none, and everyone was really friendly. And the prices were not bad at all.
I really think that the main reason that this is happening is due to the economy overall, not just gas. Someone had said that there is less credit(Home Equity) cash out there, so fewer folks are entering the hobby. This sounds reasonable. Times are tough and are only going to get tougher. And contrary to popular belief, not eveyone that drives a Porsche is a Multi-Millionaire, insulated from the fluctuations of the economy.
And lastly, I really think that peoples priorities change over time. I know mine have. I have to do a bunch of work on my home, bills are going up, and my salary is not increasing at the same pace. So while I really enjoy(ed) the whole track experience, it is just not in the cards at the moment.
It's just interesting how things ebb and flow.
- APXD 30 - 06-05-2008
I agree with others that gas prices aren't keeping people away. In the entire expense of a DE weekend, the are only 20-30% of the cost.
For us it is mostly vacation time. Jenn & I did 6 DE weekends last year. It was the first time I'd ever used up all of my time off (including a week I had historically carried).
We have a 3 week European Delivery trip coming up. Between time off and, new tow vehicle expense, we're probably only going to do 2 more DEs for a total of 4 events this year. With the two of us not driving as many, it equates to 4 fewer registration than last year.
- steveh - 06-06-2008
I think the two biggest factors are overall economy (and its effect on people's budgets) and -- as noted in many posts -- the exploding availability of other options.
I did 18 track days last year, 4 of which were wth RTR (SP Main and Shenandoah, both terrific events). While I agree generally with the notion that RTR instruction is best (in my experience, my two best instructors have been from RTR and BMWCCA), I have found the advancement criteria to be a bit stingy in practice, and track time and quality for money spent (yes, the RTR entry fee is smaller than most, but that's a relatively small portion of the cost of the entire weekend) makes the choice among tracks, and clubs, a little more difficult.
Just as an example, I just returned from a 2-day event at Mid-Ohio with Chin Motorsports. The entry fee was much higher than RTR's, but still a relatively small portion of the total cost of towing, hotel, etc. I run in their Blue group (intermediate solo) and, for the marginally higher price, had a total of 3.5 available hours of track time on day 1 and almost 5 hours on day 2 (combined run groups). The $/track hour return at a premier road course put that event on my list.
At Jefferson, I would have close to the same costs in towing, hotel, etc., for about 1.5 hours of track time per day in the Green group, at a track that is generally acknowledged to not be the best on the RTR schedule (I feel the same way about Pocono North, although I did run there at an open track day with NASA-NE earlier this year). With other dollar and time commitments, I just could not justify it.
I'm not complaining -- I have the highest respect for Jack's program, its instructors and its advancement criteria, and I am really looking forward to SP this fall. With unlimited $$, I'd be tearing up Green next weekend at Jefferson. But it just doesn't rank that high as a value proposition with a limited budget for track time.
I think part of the solution is to try to bring more people into the hobby, especially at the novice level. I encourage everyone I know who drives a performance car to at least try a track day or two. Even if they don't get "hooked," the skills learned and practiced at the track will certainly enhance their enjoyment of the car, and may save someone's life some day.
- JIMK - 06-10-2008
ccm911 wrote:
Quote:Back when I was registrar, the green and blue groups usually had a wait list that was like a mile long. And now I hear that there are openings this close to an event?
What is happening? Is it the price of gas? Is someone scaring new folks about the track experience? Is money tight, and less folks are able to participate? Is it the difficulty in obtaining track insurance?
Does anyone have any dea of what is going on? This is really strange. Don't let such a great thing get away. It takes participants to make this all happen.
Short answer... it's Jefferson.
SP's long course is a fun track, albeit quite beat up again. Jefferson eats my tires so I'll slide a different track into my schedule instead of Jeff.
See ya Monday :-)