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+--- Thread: Help with Tough Decision (memoirs of a track newb) (/showthread.php?tid=1227)
- George3 - 07-13-2008
Glenn,
I saw a real nice track car already prepped, this weekend. PM me if you're interested.
G
- michael lang - 07-13-2008
Sorry that you're car is going to need so much work to get it right again. It really was a very nice 993. If I were in that position of replace/rebuild I'd probably be thinking along the same lines as Bob. He made a very good point in buying a car that was already prepped with a log book to go with it. The only thing you would have to do is customize it to your driving style. And he is so right about your race parts selling very quickly. I'm sure that the answer for what's best for you will come in its own time.
- catchacab - 07-13-2008
G-
If you think you had it bad, check out this thread
http://www.caymanclub.net/zone-2/25128-gt3-crash-summit-point.html
Bob is right that it is cheaper to buy an already prepped track car. Make sure you get a PPI done.
I am not a personal fan of the Boxster as a track car. I personally feel more comfortable with a metal roof over my head on the track. This is probably more psychological than anything else. For years I thought that Porsche was missing out on a lower entry cost steel roofed track car (non 911) and at least came the Cayman.
Many of the prepped cars, are probably more car than you are a driver (this is not a dig) so don't be worried about buying the fastest, most prepped, most expensive one. Find the one that fits your budget and one that can help you develop as a driver as well as one that can grow with you. Look for a car that has a active after market manufacturers that are not only supporting your model but at least one or two model cycles previous to the car you are looking at, this way based on current and previous experience you can expect that parts will continue to be available, with out having to resort to custom fabrications.
The rule that I have followed in purchasing a track car, is only to purchase one that I can afford to lose.
I am glad that you did not suffer any injuries in your incident.
-E
- Tony356993 - 07-13-2008
Quote:to start with a car holding a log book and the required safety features nowGlen,
As we spoke today, I'm with Bob. Find an already completed solid car with a log book. You will have track data for a car with a log book and you will have historical data about various tracks/times.
Quote:The rule that I have followed in purchasing a track car, is only to purchase one that I can afford to lose.
Everyone has a budget. There is a budget is to replace the car as well as a budget to keep the car in top running order. Take it from a guy that poured mucho $$$ into a track car only to turn it back to a street ride - Ouch!
Remember - this is supposed to be a fun escape from the real world. Buy what you will enjoy.
Good luck.
- RSAmerica1 - 07-14-2008
Hi Glen,
I will preface this by saying I am not sure where your skill level has come to since your first event in September when I met you, but if I were you I'd stick with a basic and fairly stock car to learn as much as you possibly can before stepping up to anything "set up" too much for the track. That is just my conservative nature, and the knowledge that I am not near the edge yet after 3+ years driving my basically stock '86 Carrera on the track enough to think about anything more than that. There are lots of great SC's and Carrera's out there for litte $ that you can kick the crap out of and even turn into a fairly decent club racer or sell and buy up. Maybe a Boxster is a good option, too.
Again, though, that is just me and my $0.02. How's the new little one doing?
P
- catchacab - 07-14-2008
Glen,
I have been thinking about the Boxster, and although they have been tracked successfully for years there have are a number of areas that can lead to engine failure in the 986/987/996/997 series. The Rear Main Seal issue should be of little concern compared to these problems.
1. Intermediate Shaft failure (IMS)
2. engine block failure generally confined to the 1998-9 model years
3. The oiling system is not a true dry sump, like their air-cooled brothers. (After losing two engines due to this, I will only track a true dry sump engine, or one that has been tested like the 997 MKII engine) Air induction into the oiling system can lead to premature failure of your engine, fixes are available (deepened and baffled sumps (Brey-Krauss, Mantis), having additional oil pick up fabricated and placed. There is also a problem with the oil/air separator. Go to the Cayman Club and look up smoking caymen (especially at the track).
What is your source for a $3K engine replacement? New replacement engines from PCNA I believe go for about $10-14K
I know that some find PCM and the inability to left foot brake a hindrance on the track. A Cayman guy I know that club races has had problems with the ABS in his Cayman, and had to upgrade it to a Porsche Motorsport ABS unit.
These are just some things that I have seen. But still these water cooled cars can be successfully tracked, you just need to have all the information before making your decision. I know you are active on RL, search and keep you eyes open there and ask a ton of questions, there is a lot of info to be found there, in addition to our local club.
I am not saying that the air cooled cars are better, trust me they do have their problems and limitations.
Good luck in your search.
-Eric
PS If you want a cheap track car to purchase, but expensive to maintain, you can always buy a 944. I know a guy who has one, it just needs an engine
- ninjabones - 07-15-2008
Pete:
Funny you should mention that... I'm looking at a 83 SC that is already track preppped. The seller is looking for a winter project and may trade it for my slightly tarnished 993. If it all works out, I may be at tech this weekend and ready to go for the Glen
G
- ninjabones - 07-15-2008
catchacab wrote:
Quote:Glen,
I have been thinking about the Boxster, and although they have been tracked successfully for years there have are a number of areas that can lead to engine failure in the 986/987/996/997 series. The Rear Main Seal issue should be of little concern compared to these problems.
1. Intermediate Shaft failure (IMS)
2. engine block failure generally confined to the 1998-9 model years
3. The oiling system is not a true dry sump, like their air-cooled brothers. (After losing two engines due to this, I will only track a true dry sump engine, or one that has been tested like the 997 MKII engine) Air induction into the oiling system can lead to premature failure of your engine, fixes are available (deepened and baffled sumps (Brey-Krauss, Mantis), having additional oil pick up fabricated and placed. There is also a problem with the oil/air separator. Go to the Cayman Club and look up smoking caymen (especially at the track).
What is your source for a $3K engine replacement? New replacement engines from PCNA I believe go for about $10-14K
I know that some find PCM and the inability to left foot brake a hindrance on the track. A Cayman guy I know that club races has had problems with the ABS in his Cayman, and had to upgrade it to a Porsche Motorsport ABS unit.
These are just some things that I have seen. But still these water cooled cars can be successfully tracked, you just need to have all the information before making your decision. I know you are active on RL, search and keep you eyes open there and ask a ton of questions, there is a lot of info to be found there, in addition to our local club.
I am not saying that the air cooled cars are better, trust me they do have their problems and limitations.
Good luck in your search.
-Eric
PS If you want a cheap track car to purchase, but expensive to maintain, you can always buy a 944. I know a guy who has one, it just needs an engine
Eric:
Here is a compilation of responses that I got on the Spec Boxster forum regarding your boxster concerns:
_______________________________
"Ninjabones,
I shared some of these concerns before I got into Spec Boxster as well. I was tracking my 964 before I got the box. What I found is that while these are theoretically good points, in practice they are less worrysome. Sure, the idea of dry sump makes you feel more comfortable, but in reality the boxster has been tracked/raced quite a bit w/o any oiling problems. I think the only oiling problem we might have seen was on the banks at LVMS. The POC folks have been flogging the heck out of these cars for a couple years now, and not one failure that I know of.
In terms of picking a 'good' motor, I generally use the rule that if the motor has seen > 50k then it's likely fine, if it's lower mileage than that, it may still be a 'bad one'. Mine had 90k and so far has been perfect.
3k motors are used motors most likely.
I think you mean PSM not PCM right? 97-99 box does not have it, it started in 2001 as far as I know.The 97-99 cars in the spec are not egas, and the only option on some cars is the traction control (which everyone turns off). My car does not have traction control. Many guys left foot brake w/o problems.
Hope this helps! These cars are outstanding track cars, simple, fast, light, fun, relatively inexpensive
--------------------
I came from dry sump cars as well(993Cup, RSA & 996Cup) & had some of the same concerns as you but in researching this class & talking w/people running it, I found out that the cars are very reliable. We can run the deeper sump but that issue is not as prevalent in Boxsters as it is in in 996s since their moment of inertia is different. The 996 motor being hung out back makes the issue much worse then the mid-engine Bxoster set-up. The air/oil seperator is on version:5, I think & the new ones are reliable. My car was run in California for over a year & has 135k+ miles on it. Like Kenny said, higher mileage motors seem to be better since any gremlins will have reared their head by then. Some like them over 100k to start. Motors from Porsche I think are up to around $ 7k now on a reman but other options are about to hit the market(check recent threads here). Used motors are cheap. I just picked up an 80k motor up for $ 1,250.00 & see them often for $ 3k or less. Trannys run around a grand if you ever need one. Haven't heard anything about intermediate shaft or weak blocks being an issue.
J
___________________________________
To back up Kenny's point, I have traction control which I occasionally forget to turn off. It lets me know right away on the first turn. I have no problem left foot braking into a turn with it on or off. I have PSM on my 997S and it shuts off the fuel if I try to left foot brake. There have been zero (0) motor failures yet in a Boxster and many of these cars have over 100k miles on them. They apparently do not suffer the oil starvation issues the 996 motors have....
____________________________________________
Data from my 3.2L at TWS, MSR and ECR show that Oil P drops below 15psi on most corners. That has me a little scared, although the 2.5L seems to be holding up well (other than the ones with sleeve issues)...
_________________________________________________________
My 02 S Boxster blew up at Buttonwillow in 2006. (Tons of emulsified oil and shiny little pieces of metal in the rear trunk.) Not sure why it blew as I got rid of the car without fixing the engine. It was a Tiptronic so it could not have been caused by missing a gear, over reving, etc. I have heard of other Boxster S's losing engines and even some Caymans--but not the 2.5L early boxes. Perhaps the S and Cayman are more prone to this problem.
- bobt993 - 07-15-2008
Glen, I see no issue with opting to a Boxster (S). I suggest the (S) based on the better brakes which I found very necessary (having tracked both S and nonS). The PSM was able to be deleted as an option on the car when ordered for some time. I owned a 2002 S with NO PSM. Specifically looked for this "non PSM" option. I racer running a very prepped Boxster S managed 2:12s at the Glen Enduro so they are capable cars with the right driver.
- catchacab - 07-16-2008
Glen, A good and sometimes great club race car does not always make a good DE car and visa versa. Club race cars are built to certain specs to use every advantage for the class that they are intended to be raced in. There may and probably are many modifications that could be made to the car to make the car a much better track car, but these modifications may put the car in a different race class that it won't be competitive in, or the modifications may not be allowed in the race series. That is why some great DE track cars can't be club raced.
If you are not planning on racing for a number of years, buy a car that is good for DE. There is no perfect race or DE car, they all have their weaknesses and faults. It is a matter of finding the right car for you. You never know if you buy a track car today, will you have it 2, 5, 7 or 10 years from now? Look around the paddock at any DE and ask those in the advanced run groups how long have they had their cars.
I learned high performance driving on a low HP car, and learned a great deal by being on track with much higher HP cars while being in the instructed run groups. It made me work harder to achieve what higher HP and electronic nannies gave to other drivers. Your choice to track a 993 was a great choice. You had the advantage in learning how to drive in a car with out PCM but with ABS, and what is now in the lower end of the middle of the HP war. Getting and learning on an SC will be a great learning experience for you.
I have said for the past number of years that it would be great if the club could purchase a bunch on SC's and 3.2 Carreras and have all drivers in Green drive them on track exclusively.
check out this thread, it is related to all the water cooled engines http://www.caymanclub.net/news-items/23939-smokeem-if-you-gotem-petition-porsche.html