+- Riesentöter Forums (https://rtr-pca.org/forum)
+-- Forum: General Discussion (https://rtr-pca.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=25)
+--- Forum: Off-Topic (https://rtr-pca.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=49)
+--- Thread: Who should be paid more money? (/showthread.php?tid=1357)
- AMoore - 09-17-2008
Wellardmac wrote:
Quote:Sorry guys, for me to support teachers getting paid more money I'd like to see higher educational standards and better quality teachers.
I have several teachers for neighbors and none of them are the sharpest knives in the drawer. Knowing these idiots makes me seriously consider private school for my kids when they get to that age.
I couldn't support high teacher salaries (and higher property taxes as a result) unless we clear out the dead wood, bring in higher quality teachers, and improve the thing that is loosely called a curriculum.
There is a teacher shortage because brighter people don't want to get paid so little. Do you really think making it harder to be a teacher, before increasing salaries, is the solution. It won't work. I agree that many teachers are unqualified. Before ever taking an education class, I scored in the top 10 ten percent of people taking the National Teachers Exam. This says more about the people taking the test than it does about me; but there is nothing we can do about it until the profession becomes more attractive. And don't point to the few school districts that do pay a lot after twenty years of service. I bet these teachers, who have post graduate degrees, still make less per hour than their counterparts in industry. Moreover, starting salaries in the average schoold district is the better measuring stick. Yes, they get 10 weeks off during the summer, but they are not paid for this time. Furthermore, their salary is withheld so that they can get paychecks during the summer; thus, the district gets to earn the interest on money the teachers earned.
Also, don't forget there is more to teaching than being a sharp knife. Not all intelligent people know how, or can learn how, to deal with children. It does take certain unmeasurable attributes.
- LouZ - 09-17-2008
Wellardmac wrote:
Quote:I was leaving the gym last week and heard two teachers whining in the parking lot about their workload for marking and I wanted to tell them to get a life and join the real world. Sorry, but I have little patience. I know of several people who have left industry after getting burned out and gone into teaching and their reports are that it's an easy life compared to the workload and stress level that we in the productive world deal with on a daily basis.
Oh, the whining of the misinformed! Did you walk the walk before you talk the talk?
Along with Art, my wife was a teacher prior to her disability. She had a Master's +30 credits, which puts her mighty close to a PhD. I believe that you are in some technical field, well, she was an A.P. chemistry teacher (how was your Organics, DiffyQ and PChem?). "Workload for Marking".....ever have to prepare 3 separate tests weekly, then run labs, followed by reading, evaluating and marking the reports WEEKLY?
I have first hand personal experience in whining about the workload after class was over for the day. During her last few months of classes, prior to "retiring" (full disability), I had to pick up the slack and help her every night and weekend because all of the "marking" had to be turned around in reasonable time.
And I don't buy the uninformed person's trite response...Oh, she's one of the exceptions! I'm a professional (limited to doctors, lawyers, engineers and teachers in the true sense of the word) and I don't put in as much time, have the stress, or have to put up with the wisea$$es that occupy the seats of our schools, nor Mommy and Daddy that think that they are superior to the teacher and that their child is always right.
- Wellardmac - 09-17-2008
LouZ wrote:
Quote:Oh, the whining of the misinformed! Did you walk the walk before you talk the talk?
Along with Art, my wife was a teacher prior to her disability. She had a Master's +30 credits, which puts her mighty close to a PhD. I believe that you are in some technical field, well, she was an A.P. chemistry teacher (how was your Organics, DiffyQ and PChem?). "Workload for Marking".....ever have to prepare 3 separate tests weekly, then run labs, followed by reading, evaluating and marking the reports WEEKLY?
I have first hand personal experience in whining about the workload after class was over for the day. During her last few months of classes, prior to "retiring" (full disability), I had to pick up the slack and help her every night and weekend because all of the "marking" had to be turned around in reasonable time.
And I don't buy the uninformed person's trite response...Oh, she's one of the exceptions! I'm a professional (limited to doctors, lawyers, engineers and teachers in the true sense of the word) and I don't put in as much time, have the stress, or have to put up with the wisea$$es that occupy the seats of our schools, nor Mommy and Daddy that think that they are superior to the teacher and that their child is always right.
Hey, I didn't knock the difficulties of teaching - they are considerable and challenging, but I won't listen to the complaints of teachers when it comes to pay and workload - sorry, I've had too many friends make the transition.
I DO walk the walk of being a professional scientist in industry faced with the challenges of being creative and inventive on a daily basis, oh and BTW, let's make sure that my next product makes $50 million per year for my company, or it's not worth doing. You want to talk productivity and impact, I'm your man.
The things that you mention above sound just like my workload during grad school and I was doing research on top of that. I have walked that walk.
I mean no disrespect, but I don't care how many credits your wife has on top of her Masters it doesn't make her a Ph.D. Credits do not make a Ph.D. - creativity, inventive process, logical and mechanistic thinking, etc make a Ph.D. A Ph.D is about making knowledge and pushing the boundaries of science - it's not about accumulating credits and taking tests.
As a scientist, I create the science that she teaches. If the science curriculum included cutting edge science, she would be teaching my stuff.
Pity that the typical science curriculum hardly passes for science anymore. It's pitiful. The quality of students that I judge at science fair should make their teachers ashamed.
- catchacab - 09-17-2008
If you want to improve education
1. Eliminate tenure
2. Pay based on performance not seniority
3. Increase educational funding
Imagine a great teacher being recruited away by another school district offering him/her more money. Or being able to fire the teacher who has been in the district for 20 years that isn't able to connect with his/her students. Now we would have the free market economy working in the educational system.
- Darren - 09-17-2008
Eric -- hot chicks are my avatar, why is yours a balding grey older man?
- catchacab - 09-17-2008
He makes me look good!
It is Bill O'Reily
- Darren - 09-17-2008
Oh and waah waah waah teachers don't make enough money. I don't make enough money because all of the tech jobs are going to India.
I found this link that shows PA teacher salaries (wow!! why is this public???)
http://php.app.com/PAteachers0607/search.php
My son's teacher made $42k in her first year in 2006-2007. That isn't an awful starting salary, and come on, they get 1.5-2 months off in the summer.
The superintendent makes $198k!
- Wellardmac - 09-17-2008
catchacab wrote:
Quote:If you want to improve education
1. Eliminate tenure
2. Pay based on performance not seniority
3. Increase educational funding
Imagine a great teacher being recruited away by another school district offering him/her more money. Or being able to fire the teacher who has been in the district for 20 years that isn't able to connect with his/her students. Now we would have the free market economy working in the educational system.
I'm with you. Many teachers forget about performance and just fall into a rut.
I would love to see the same performance management systems that we use in industry used in the education system - boy would we hear whining then! Complaints about heavily subsidized (or free) healthcare would fade when the prospect of a low ranking and termination of employment comes in because they've not performed well enough this year.
I have to perform day in day out. It's not about what I did last year, it's about what I've done for my company this year - what have I personally done to contribute to earnings? What have you done for me lately?!? If I do not excel, then I don't get a raise. If my company does not reach targets, then I don't get a bonus - one that is incidentally a large part of my total compensation. Talk about motivation.
The pressure to produce is there and real. You went with the flow this year - low ranking and no raise for you! Consistantly low ranked? Then I guess we haave to show you the door!
The bar for performance in industry is raised year after year. Doing a "good" job now gets you a low ranking because everyone is pushed to excel (I am sadly not exaggerating).
When I do performance management for my research groups I am faced with the reality that I (and my peers) routinely have to give low ranking to people who 5 years ago would have been regarded as "doing a good job". Doing a good job no longer cuts it - we now live in a world where we have to push to do more with less, achieve more faster, create better performing products that cost less. Do more than our colleagues.
I can guarantee that anyone that works in my business is highly motivated to raise the bar and contribute, otherwise they (at best) do not get financially rewarded and at worst quickly find themselves being escorted out the door. There is no such thing as coasting in my job.
- catchacab - 09-17-2008
We would in a heartbeat spend $42K on a car. Isn't our children's education worth that if not more?
- Wellardmac - 09-17-2008
One other thing to those that think that teachers are not paid enough (with their long vacations and benefits that I would kill for). Remember this, teachers work for the taxpayer. Our highly inflated property taxes go directly to the school districts. The more you get paid, the more we pay in taxes.
Now, if the education system was delivering a quality product, then that might not be a bad thing - but many with children in school recognize that the quality of education for our children is shameful. I'll repeat that, shameful. Just to make myself feel better I'll say it again - SHAMEFUL.
We get a crappy product for the amount that we spend and if real quality standards were implemented, then change would happen because such poor quality education would not be tolerated in a private system.
The quality of education is such that those that can afford to put their children into private school do, or supplement with tutors. Those that cannot afford private tuition have (if they desire to give their children a quality education) to step in and full in the gaps in their own time. There is a class gap in this country and it's driven by education and money.
...and you wonder why I get annoyed when I hear teachers whining. Let them walk a mile in my shoes and know what real performance management is about. Good grief Charlie Brown.