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+--- Thread: anti-sub straps (/showthread.php?tid=1378)
- Terry - 02-28-2009
Take another look at the driver's door side attachment point for your stock 3 point belt. I bet it mounts to the seat. The B-K part mounts to the same bolt.
- fve - 02-28-2009
Terry wrote:
Quote:Take another look at the driver's door side attachment point for your stock 3 point belt. I bet it mounts to the seat. The B-K part mounts to the same bolt.
sorry i think you were posting while i was sending you a PM. In any case,i think that we are talking about 2 different parts and 2 different mounting points. I see where the 3-point belt and 6-point harness should attach to the seat, but i am talking about another item that allows the mounting to b-pillar behind the door, if that makes sense. Perhaps i am not explaining well. And...really, it was a digression.
- KennyB - 03-01-2009
Frank
I spoke with Paul Walsack on Sat. The bottom line is that you will want do do whatever will pass tech for our events. Paul said he is not sure that he can sign off on any substrap that attaches to the seat, including via a seat-mounted subbar. However, before giving you an "official" response, he is going to research the issue esp. with respect to the GT3.
I'm in the same boat, will be putting harnesses in my GT3, so I will be listening with interest. There is another type of bar that mounts to the chassis using the same bolts as the seat rails (i.e. no drilling but mounted between tub and rails) and that might be acceptable.
- scwaters - 03-01-2009
WOW - Really an importnay issue as my Cayman is currently at the shop have GT3 seats and belts installed as I am heading to VIR on the 12th.
- fve - 03-01-2009
KennyB wrote:
Quote:Frank
I spoke with Paul Walsack on Sat. The bottom line is that you will want do do whatever will pass tech for our events. Paul said he is not sure that he can sign off on any substrap that attaches to the seat, including via a seat-mounted subbar. However, before giving you an "official" response, he is going to research the issue esp. with respect to the GT3.
I'm in the same boat, will be putting harnesses in my GT3, so I will be listening with interest. There is another type of bar that mounts to the chassis using the same bolts as the seat rails (i.e. no drilling but mounted between tub and rails) and that might be acceptable.
Thank you very much for looking into this for me. i guess that is the reason he has not emailed me back.
I guess for now, need to plan on drill/weld. But...the question remains do the sub-bars serve any purpose if one mounts to the floor-secured eyebolt. And, why then does Porsche sell and seemingly recommend the sub-bar for the sub straps. Heck, it is in the shop manual. I am happy to find the page(s) and post it if anyone does not have access to it.
As for scwaters. I am glad, then, that i am raising these questions. I really have tried to do the appropriate research and, as far as i can tell, there is no clear answer for what should be done. That many have done the floor mounting is clear, but is it needed?
As a general recommendation for our region. Perhaps collecting the region requirements (and recommendations) for safety modifications would be a good addition to the RTR web site.
Thank you all for the interest.
- scwaters - 03-02-2009
I just e-mailed this to Paul Walsack our saftey chair
Paul
I am writing this e-mail to request clarification on the acceptable manner in which to mount the Porsche supplied sub-belt in the Schroth Profi 11-6 (6 point) harness in conjunction with the GT3 seats that adjust fore and aft. I believe this paring is the European Club Racing set-up. In my case it is in the process of being mounted in my Cayman and it in unclear in at least two regions if mounting to the Porsche sub bar using the Schroth Wrap method is going to pass DE tech. Salient facts:
If the Schroth Profi II-6 are purchased anywhere but through Porsche, the sub-belts are (i) longer and (ii) come with a floor mounting kit. The set supplied with the GT3 seats does not contain the floor mounting hardware but instead supply the same hardware (on the sub belt out of the box) that the shoulder belts use to mount to the Harness bar.
Schroth is clear in the “Competition Harness Instructions�? that the mounting point for the sub belt is ideally to be directly under the seat pass through point but in no case more than 20 degrees aft.
Porsche supplies a sub-belt mount bar that mounts to the seat frame with four 13mm bolts directly under the sub-belt seat opening in the GT3 seat and moves fore and aft with the seat maintaining the proper entry angle.
The Schroth Sub-belt lengths are sufficient to utilize the prescribed Wrap System. The belts are not long enough for mount to the floor and accommodate the movement of the seat. While the drivers seat floor mounting could be located such that in the preferred driving position the entry angle was correct, the instructors seat (I am in RTR Blue) position would vary dependent on the size of the individual.
Lastly, The seat adjustment cross bar is located such that if the sub-belts were floor mounted the cross bar would inhibit fore and aft movement.
Given all of the above it is clear to me that Porsche intended the sub-belt mounts to be wrap mounted around the sub-belt bar as this is the only logical application that allows the parameters of the belt manufacturer to be met while allowing the seats the fore and aft movement.
Can you please issue a ruling on this? (VIR on 3-13 and my OEM seats are out of the car at Possum Hollow motorsports)
- Wally - 03-02-2009
Harness attachments are addressed by item #14 in the PCA safety requirements. In part it states, "Harnesses cannot be mounted to seat or seat rail. Mounting must be to the chassis backed by large diameter washers. No two harness straps can be attached to a single mounting bolt......etc.."
In short it does not matter how Porsche mounts its harnesses to their Sport Seats. We are governed by PCA for our DE rules and insurance.
- betegh9 - 03-02-2009
Not to confuse ANYBODY, but I found this article that is relevant. Mr. Kramer explained the situation well, but this article goes into little more detail...................................... This is NOT SPECIFIC TO GT-3'S
http://pdi.pubs.home.comcast.net/%7Epdi.pubs/id16.htm
hock:hock::dude:
- fve - 03-03-2009
Wally wrote:
Quote:Harness attachments are addressed by item #14 in the PCA safety requirements. In part it states, "Harnesses cannot be mounted to seat or seat rail. Mounting must be to the chassis backed by large diameter washers. No two harness straps can be attached to a single mounting bolt......etc.."
In short it does not matter how Porsche mounts its harnesses to their Sport Seats. We are governed by PCA for our DE rules and insurance.
Not to be contentious, but...the same rule states: "Five, six or seven point SFI or FIA approved competition harnesses, are required and must be properly mounted in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications (see Appendix B). (my italics and bold for emphasis. Not to make it over long, but both Porsche and Schroth specify the use of the sub-bar and bracket mounting.
I have found numerous instances on the PCA site where the euro gt3 seat/bracket/sub-bar combination was recommended as alternative to the older modality of bolts/washers. To whit...
"For years we liked the TRW/Sabelt camlock belt system, but that seems to have faded now, and the Schroth product seems to have replaced it. That is certainly true with Porsche Motorsports cars.
Unfortunately none of the 5- or 6-point racing harness products are designed for the stock seats. In fact it is a bad combination. The shoulder harnesses are free to slide down the sides of the seat, and you can't bring the sub-belt (the 5th and 6th pieces) up through the seat, so this is not considered safe. At minimum a rear section roll cage is needed, along with FIA approved race seats to really upgrade the car for track safety. Doing it halfway can create more risks than you might think. For a long time we liked the "harness bar" installed across the B-pillars, but that adds risk for back & neck injury, so that is no longer recommended.
Since you have a 996, you have an option that we never used to have before; you might be able to find & fit the 996 GT3 street car parts, which include the bolt-in cage, the seats, and the Schroth 6-point harnesses.
There are many many suppliers for this sort of thing, I would start by looking at the various offerings, and see who is responsive to what you need. Or try FVD,www.fvd-usa.com, they have some experience with the GT2/GT3 interior systems as well as a line of German made bolt-in roll cages. However, you may also want to find someone in your area who has done this kind of conversion work before. Safety equipment like this must be taken very seriously, and should only be installed by professionals with a track record, no pun intended.
Joel Reiser - PCA WebSite - 5/18/2003"
Additionally, my understanding is that the rules for club racing do not apply eo DE evetns, again to quite the PCA site, the question was:
"There seems to be a great deal of confusion about what is required by each club to do DE events. I have no interest in competing in anything, I just enjoy DE very much.
I would like to enter some of your PCA events, but the rules as I have been lead to understand them are a little out of sync with the materials supplied by PGA.
I have ordered my car with a GT3 Racing seat (FIA) & a roll bar assembly, Porsche's own, and a 6 point harness for the driver's seat, again Porsche's own. I have been told by someone that Porsche's own equipment isn't 'allowed' in a PCA event. I'm sure this can't be right, can you please clarify the situation."
The response was:
"I think the confusion comes from a Porsche Club Racing rule (which by the way has been changed for 2004). Since you are talking about Driver Ed, it would not have been an issue anyway. The rule change (for what its worth) is basically that some of the 2" lap belts are now allowed, and others have to change to a 3" lap belt. All this is spelled out clearly in the PCA Club Racing rulebook, available online elsewhere on this site.
For Driver Ed, I like to start by going over the checklist of your intended events' Tech Inspection form. If there are several regions you might run with, get both of their forms (they are usually pretty similar).
Usually you don't have to do much to a new car. However, you may find they want to see "equal restraints" for both you and your instructor. So that would imply getting the passenger's side belts to match yours.
The bulk of the tech inspection form and process involves checking things like brake pads and fluid to see that they are freshly serviced and ready to go, which yours should pass easily. We check suspension parts for cracks or loose bolts, again your GT3 will likely pass with ease. Your helmet needs to be checked, and so on.
Joel Reiser - PCA WebSite - 1/29/2004"
To make this clear. I spent a good deal of money and time to focus on safety. I am not trying to cut any corners. If i did, i would have put on some loud fart-cans on the car, etc. No, my only significant modifications to the car have safety ones. I care about this. I want to do it as well as possible. Porsche and Schroth have come up with a system that seemingly has been used for years. We put our faith in their cars, can they possibly be full of s--- when it comes to safety. I am perplexed. Basically, i am not convinced that an eye-bolt with a washer mounted to sheet metal is going to be safer for me and my instructor than the OEM system. I am also perplexed that this seemingly has not been an issue before, these are all items that have been around for years.
food for thought. fve
- Phokaioglaukos - 03-04-2009
I'm coming to this late, sorry. There is lot of discussion on the identical topic on Rennlist. Here's the short of it: Lap and sub belts should mount to the GT3 seat itself. That is not legal for PCA Club racing, but it is how Porsche designed the seats to work. No seat back brace should be used.