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+--- Thread: New Detroit bailout plan (/showthread.php?tid=1404)
- nplenzick - 12-12-2008
Nothing wrong with the companies you mentioned providing jobs, however for those jobs to come here those companies have been given huge tax incentives from the local and state governments. You don't think VW would be building a new plant in Tennessee if that wasn't going to happen do you? What happen to those tax incentives VW got when they had their plant in our state? What did we get for that? As I pointed out in the springtime Honda has stopped making motorcycles here and decided to bring production home. Why do you think that was the case? Most of the bikes that they built here were designed for the USA market. Now they build them in Japan at a sightly higher labor rate and ship them here. Why do you think they do that? You don't think it's a national security problem if we lose are auto manufacturing base here? Hell why should we build anything including planes, missiles, everything let's have everything we need made by foreign manufacturers. We'll be strictly consumers! Would you buy a car no matter how well built from a company that is bankrupt? Would you invest money in that company? Do you not think that foreign manufactures are not being helped by their respective governments?
If these were normal times I would agree with some of you, but these are not normal times my friends, if we lose half of the jobs they say we could loose we're all screwed!
- ccm911 - 12-13-2008
RCohen wrote:
Quote:Chris, when was the last time you drove a new american car? Nothing like a stereotype without relevant information. I am not defending Detroit, I had a full ride in college on GM's tab but bailed because the crap they sold was such junk. The last american car I bought was in 86 and fell apart after 60K miles. But I will not make a statement about the quality of their cars today without trying a couple.I just drove a new Corvette the other day. And yes it was junk. Do the big three have special suppliers that provide chintzy materials? And the workmanship was horrible. They should really just go buy a VW and study it to see how to build good cars.
Given the right situation I would give them another chance and hope they hear the changes needed. I object to the government just goving out money. With this concept it would be survival of the best cars , not the best complainers.
- Ccns23 - 12-13-2008
I've been saying that for years. Go out and buy a freaking Jetta and see what materials they use. I mean, c'mon if the Germans can do it can't we? Heck, step it up a notch and study an Audi A4. Audi, IMO, makes the best interiors of any car out on the market today. And it's not like they do anything truly special. But, they took the time to see what their consumers wanted. They place the controls in logical spots on the dash. They don't use the cheaper plastics. Yes, it's still plastic in places, but it's a soft touch plastic. When they say it's a wood trim, it's REAL wood. Not "woodesque" trim. In defense of GM at least, the new Malibu is a step in the right direction. However, it's a case of too little too late.
And you are so on point with the Corvette. Here's their halo car and they use the same parts from a cobalt on the interior. What are they thinking? And if you check the panels for tolerences, you'll see huge gaps all over. It's like they just have no pride in their craftsmanship. I just don't get it???
- AMoore - 12-13-2008
ccm911 wrote:
Quote:RCohen wrote:Quote:Chris, when was the last time you drove a new american car? Nothing like a stereotype without relevant information. I am not defending Detroit, I had a full ride in college on GM's tab but bailed because the crap they sold was such junk. The last american car I bought was in 86 and fell apart after 60K miles. But I will not make a statement about the quality of their cars today without trying a couple.I just drove a new Corvette the other day. And yes it was junk. Do the big three have special suppliers that provide chintzy materials? And the workmanship was horrible. They should really just go buy a VW and study it to see how to build good cars.
Given the right situation I would give them another chance and hope they hear the changes needed. I object to the government just goving out money. With this concept it would be survival of the best cars , not the best complainers.
Chris,
So the Vette broke down when you drove it? Or, perhaps the styling and combination of less expensive interior components combined with world class mechanical components, which provide supercar performance for less than 50K, was not appealing to you. I myself am considering picking up an 03 Vette, with the Z51 suspension package, for less than 30K. Might be nice to spend less than a hundred bucks on replacement rotors for a change.
Reliability - How many people have stories of Chevy motors lasting forever? If they do need to be replaced, a brand new Vette crate motor can be had for less than a rebuilt 3.2 liter Carrera engine. Don't get me wrong, I love my RS, but American car builders are still suffering from the deserved stigma of the crap cars they built from 1974 - 1983, which is when this country first fell in love with foreign cars.
- nplenzick - 12-13-2008
ccm911 wrote:
Quote:I just drove a new Corvette the other day. And yes it was junk. Do the big three have special suppliers that provide chintzy materials? And the workmanship was horrible. They should really just go buy a VW and study it to see how to build good cars.
I'm sorry Chris but I think your alone here. I haven't seen any reports calling the Corvette junk...........anywhere.
2009 Corvette MSRP $49415 430 HP 16/26MPG 5 years 100,000 miles
2008 Porsche 911 ( couldn't find a price on a 09) MSRP $74360 325HP 18/26 4 years 50,000 miles.
Tell me which one is going to climb the hill thru esses at the Glen faster?
- nplenzick - 12-13-2008
Ccns23 wrote:
Quote:I've been saying that for years. Go out and buy a freaking Jetta and see what materials they use. I mean, c'mon if the Germans can do it can't we? Heck, step it up a notch and study an Audi A4. Audi, IMO, makes the best interiors of any car out on the market today. And it's not like they do anything truly special. But, they took the time to see what their consumers wanted. They place the controls in logical spots on the dash. They don't use the cheaper plastics. Yes, it's still plastic in places, but it's a soft touch plastic. When they say it's a wood trim, it's REAL wood. Not "woodesque" trim. In defense of GM at least, the new Malibu is a step in the right direction. However, it's a case of too little too late.We have an 06 A4Q and a 03 GTI. If your comparing apples to apples then you need to compare our A4 to a Cadillac CTS which one of my friends have. His interior is of high grade comparable to our Audi and better then my GTI. So does that mean my GTI is crap?
And you are so on point with the Corvette. Here's their halo car and they use the same parts from a cobalt on the interior. What are they thinking? And if you check the panels for tolerences, you'll see huge gaps all over. It's like they just have no pride in their craftsmanship. I just don't get it???
- nplenzick - 12-13-2008
AMoore wrote:
Quote:Well said.
Chris,
So the Vette broke down when you drove it? Or, perhaps the styling and combination of less expensive interior components combined with world class mechanical components, which provide supercar performance for less than 50K, was not appealing to you. I myself am considering picking up an 03 Vette, with the Z51 suspension package, for less than 30K. Might be nice to spend less than a hundred bucks on replacement rotors for a change.
Reliability - How many people have stories of Chevy motors lasting forever? If they do need to be replaced, a brand new Vette crate motor can be had for less than a rebuilt 3.2 liter Carrera engine. Don't get me wrong, I love my RS, but American car builders are still suffering from the deserved stigma of the crap cars they built from 1974 - 1983, which is when this country first fell in love with foreign cars.
So instead of buying used, would you consider buying new if something like the original poster's idea past in Congress. A new 6 speed Corvette with a 50% tax deduction seems like a no brainier to me.
- RCohen - 12-14-2008
Chris
Not to pick on you, but what is the relevance of comparing the trim pieces of a sedan with a performance car? Try a comparison of similar performance vehicles, then look at the price. If you want to pay more for nicer plastic ash trays go for it.
- ccm911 - 12-14-2008
RCohen wrote:
Quote:ChrisLook. I drove a new Corvette, and it had a ton of rattles. It also had a vibration that felt like the driveshaft was hitting the trans tunnel.
Not to pick on you, but what is the relevance of comparing the trim pieces of a sedan with a performance car? Try a comparison of similar performance vehicles, then look at the price. If you want to pay more for nicer plastic ash trays go for it.
A lot of relevance in my comparison. Why does a $17k Gplf/Rabbit have a better interior than a so called "Halo Vehicle" costing $50k?
And Nick. You can win this one by saying one thing. Either we loan them the money up front, or we pay via increased hits to social services(Welfare, Medicare, etc.). I would not be able to successfully defend my resistance to those circumstances.
But in the end, it all sucks. And where will these "bailouts" stop. Seems like every self made "Capitalist" is now crying for government money. But then, weren't those the same people who purported their interest in smaller government? At the least, a bunch of these executives need to be punished severely for being asleep at the wheel.
- catchacab - 12-14-2008
I DIDN'T SCREW UP YET, BUT I WANT A BAIL OUT TOO!!!
MY IDEA FOR A NEW BAIL OUT PLAN: [size=2]Give every miserable (just the miserable ones who don't treat their husbands well (my wife treats me well, but this is for a few of my friends) ) woman a government funded bail out that is 50% of their husband's wealth, and give their husbands the option to tell them to get the heck out, without any financial obligation to their now ex-wife. With the market down so much at this point it will cost the government less to do this now than to wait a few years.
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