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+--- Thread: Car Control-How is it taught? (/showthread.php?tid=1562)
- michael lang - 01-18-2009
opus wrote:
Quote: I am not doing any more DE days until I get some car control lessons and practice.
Opus, definitely DON"T stop participating in DE. It's guys like you and me in the lower run groups that keep the program going not only for the advanced groups/instructors but also for the guys that have not gotten the addiction yet. I think it's safe to say that we've all spun at one time or another... that's the learning process.
- Brian Minkin - 01-18-2009
opus wrote:
Quote:Again, I am all for car control clinics. I am willing to help organize such an event.When I started in DE I ran Bridgestone S03 pole position and it was rated as a very grippy tire. No problem getting these tires to slide. I would stay with ultra-high performance tires as besides the grip of the compound the side wall stiffness of lesser tires will become a factor that you have to compensate for. I have instructed many students using Michelin Pilot Sports (not cups) and these have been outstanding as they are predictable and repeatable allowing the student to feel car beginning to slide but not breaking loose with a loss of control.
Questions for you and for all: I don't run R comp tires, but run summer ultra-high performance tires (Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3). For learning to control slides, will I be better off a lower performance tire, say an all seasons high performance tire such as the Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S?
- betegh9 - 01-18-2009
I have done my share of spins in AX, since I've been doing this AX stuff for years. First, I don't think that everyone knows what is OVERSTEER AND UNDERSTEER, specially newbies.
Actually sitting behind the wheel of a car doing a skidpad, one will BEGIN to understand what the car is doing. As others mentioned, car control clinics, AX schools held by different clubs, and the Bertyl Roos schools will do wonders. Some will learn the concept faster than others. I, for instance, spent quite a few years just doing AX in the days they had NO instruction, so I was a SLOW LEARNER. My best learning tools were the empty parking lot at my high school on a snowy night. I would put my mother's car into a spin purposely to see how I would get out of it....... this was fun! (but I never told my parents). Next, I started doing AX. I got lost on a sea of cones, but I persevered and got better at it.
In 1989, I got my first Porsche 911 and I thought that I was king of the hill, and I entered a few SCCA AX events just to deflate my ego. I was beaten by guys with less than half the car I had, so I decided to Join RTR. Lucky for me, they had a small AX program where I religiously went to every event, and YES, they held an AX school. It involved: Threshold breaking, a slalom and a skid pad. I have been going to this type of schools since, and now I instruct newbies, just like I was. the skid pad is the best lesson for learning OVERSTEER AND UNDERSTEER. Under the right instruction, the student can feel and understand these 2 terms. Together, with the use of the THROTLE, one can learn to control both of these phenomenons......... (throtle steer anyone??). Threshold breaking teaches brake control at the limits of adhesion for that particular car and tire.
NNJR PCA holds a car control clinic once a year ($50.00 fee) which sells out very quickly, and had nothing but positive comments. Look for it!
As a last note, DO AX for a minimum of one whole year (10 to 12 events) and a few car control clinics. then, when you go to the track, don't take anything that you can't walk away from, physically and/or financially.
:dude:
- Darren - 01-21-2009
Racingswh wrote:
Quote:In an oversteer slide you do not add power but you do not lift either. Either of those actions actually take away from rear grip.I think the issue is these things at some level are very hard to explain and understand without the experience to just know and feel them. The above is certainly not how I deal with oversteer in my Integra, I mash the gas pedal in an oversteering slide. I mash it and hold on! Besides the grip changing as you accel/brake(in this case less rear lateral grip because of applying accellerating force to the tire) you also have fore/aft weight transfer (which is why lifting doesn't work). If you can shift weight aft then you'll have more rear grip.
It's complicated, dynamic, and generalizations don't adequately teach car control.
Autox is a great place to learn some of these things -- it also often teaches bad habits that don't really apply at a racetrack. Trust me, it's very different responding to an emergency situation in the climbing esses at the Glen vs in a slalom at autox!
I think the single biggest thing people who are concerned about their emergency response can do is to delay going to r-compound tires. We're not racing out there, lap times don't matter. Street tires have a much more progressive grip level and they give great audio feedback.
Besides street tires, more seat time, with instruction, is key. I don't think putting off the track until you learn these things is the answer because that's the only place you will learn them.
As Todd mentioned about the rain -- its a great learning opportunity and I'm usually out there with him anytime it rains -- but not too many other people are. If you really want to blow your mind ask Todd or Bob for a ride in the rain.
- JimWirt - 01-21-2009
Have to agree with Darren on autocross teaching alot of bad habits. For one I turn in abrubtly and I'm having a hard time being smooth. My instructor told me it might be a good idea not to autocross for awhile and concentrate on track events. Warrminster had a car control clinic the one year that I attended with a few other people in the club. Thought that was a pretty good learning experiance.
- Darren - 01-21-2009
It can, the fast Autox guys don't drive like that. If you watch Patrick or Nick drive Autox they are very smooth. When I Autox I'm very abrupt because I don't think my car is set up very well for Autox. I'm usually jerking it around trying to get it not to understeer.
I think the problem is that Autox you're usually in the car by yourself and no one is there to smack your hands.
- JimWirt - 01-21-2009
Maybe I'm different. I always try and get someone to get in my car with me. I even let them drive it so I know how bad I actually am. I haven't driven with Nick yet but he told me he tries to be smooth. Small inputs even at auto crosses.
- JimWirt - 01-21-2009
Actually Nick rode with me in New Jersey. He didn't say anything. But I think he was holding on for his life. My tires were greasy. WOuld have had him ride with me again but my radiator blew up. My car understeers alot at auto cross too but it feels good for a newbee track guy on the track.
- Racingswh - 01-21-2009
Darren wrote:
Quote:I think the issue is these things at some level are very hard to explain and understand without the experience to just know and feel them. The above is certainly not how I deal with oversteer in my Integra, I mash the gas pedal in an oversteering slide. I mash it and hold on!
You make an excellent point and that's a great example of what I am talking about. I happened to be speaking of a typical situation in my fathers car an FE/RWD car and was wrongfully generalizing. Certainly how a driver deals with sliding can be and in the case of Darren's example is very vehicle specific. I think you just "know" the limits of your car and how you deal with certain circumstances. The "very hard to explain" part is key. I couldn't teach you, meaning you Darren, to drive the way you do. I couldn't teach you the exceptional level of feel you have. You just have it and have learned it on your own.
- Brian Minkin - 01-21-2009
In AX just like DE smooth is faster. You will see the best drivers taking a line that allows them to be smooth rather then a line that requires abrupt actions. In autocross to find the fast line you have more liberties then on the track where the pavement limits where you can be to start a turn. But the bottom line in learning to feel the car is SEAT TIME. The more time you spend in the drivers seat in a closed circuit environment the more you learn to feel with the seat of your pants. Grab every opportunity you can get.
As far as rain is concerned I do not like driving on the track in heavy rain. But when the track is just wet with little standing water I do go out on R compounds and although the speed is reduced it is a lot of fun to find the edge of grip and correct the cars attitude.