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+--- Thread: Recommended DE Safety Equipment - Sources (/showthread.php?tid=193)
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- jn45 - 12-08-2006
I also use my 04 996 as a daily driver and I went with the harness bar with seat back braces for DE. Like many said, it's personal preference. But, we're in the process of putting a cage in the car for club racing, so I'll let you know in about a month how that works out on the street (I'm guessing it's going to be a necessary evil that'll help fill up my fun bucket more on the weekends, but with downsides the rest of the time).
Once you've gone through the trouble of putting a cage in the car, you might as well put a net in it. A woman actually did bump her head off the wall coming out of the boot at the Glen this year.
Everybody's right, though. There's really no such thing as "too safe". Another thing to consider....You can buy race legal bolt-in cages that don't destroy your interior. So, it's not like you have to live with the cage forever once you take the dive.
But, after going through all this it occurred to me, and it's probably none of my business, but...putting a young novice into a 993+ version Porsche isn't doing him/her any favors. I'm a firm believer in learning to drive without the horsepower crutch first...older normally aspirated 944's are relatively cheap and reliable, handle decent, but teach real driving talent because you don't have the far right pedal to bail you out of your mistakes. The cage, seat, etc route is going to send your budget over $5K, and for a couple more, you can have a whole "teacher" car.
Just what you needed, right? More options. Ugh.
Joe
- Mike Andrews - 12-08-2006
Larry (all),
No offense to Joe but please do not drive a car with a cage in it on the street. Let me repeat that, [size="4"]DO NOT drive a caged car on the street[/size]. Unless you are a midget (no offense to midgets) your head will hit that bar in the event of an accident. And I don't care if it has padding on it, your head will not fair well.
- larrybard - 12-08-2006
Joe,
Some really good thoughts that I appreciate. And I'm looking forward to hearing later how you feel about the roll cage once it has been installed in your street car and you've had some experience with it.
But, based on your last comment, I ought to clarify the situation with my son. I didn't want to be any more long winded than I already had been in my original message, and therefore just mentioned my son to indicate another reason why safety was such a concern. I couldn't agree more with your reservations about putting a young novice in a high horsepower car (notwithstanding the fact that they're validly applicable to my own driving -- and though, alas, I'm far from young, arguably I should heed the same advice). That's why if you attended any of this past season's DE events that my son and I attended together, you would have seen him in his 2000 Toyota Solara [Camry] -- and it's even the 4 cylinder model, not the 6 cylinder (much to the chagrin, I think of a few other novice drivers, in their Porsches, that he did a fair job generally keeping up with). Anyway, although I may very well remain in green forever, I am confident that if my son continues to attend the DE events he will likely find himself in blue before very long. (At his last event his instructor said he appeared ready based on his skills; my guess is that he'll nevertheless need to have a fair number of additional courses under his belt before he's actually promoted.)
All of which is to say that if/when my son is in the blue group we'll be able to, and I'll soon want us to, share my 993, so we can travel to and from events in a single vehicle. And arguably, with his skills, reaction times, etc., he's already at the point where he can handle the horsepower better than I can.
Regards,
Larry
- Tony356993 - 12-08-2006
Mike is right on the money - if you put a full cage in your car it becomes a track car only IMHO - unless you are going to drive with your helmet on while driving on the street.
- Racingswh - 12-08-2006
+2 for not driving on the street with a full cage. A minor fender bender will leave you with a head injury from which you may not recover.
I even question the roll bars and harness bars I see with reclining seats and no seat back braces. On the street how do you fare if the reclining mechanism fails and you're thrown rearward when someone hits you from behind and you crack your unhelmeted noggin on the bar? Just thoughts. It's just hard to drive a really safe track car on the street when you aren't wearing the proper safety equipment that is part of the safety "system". IMO for a regularly street driven car you should run the stock setup and an R3 head restraint (doesn't require harnesses). As soon as you begin to add bars inside the car I believe it becomes a car where a helmet is required in order to be safe.
Window nets are tough in DE because you are required to give point by's in order for people to pass. I for one can't run a DE event with mine in place.
- jn45 - 12-09-2006
You guys are right...my head's messed up enough...roll bar it is.
But, now we lost our easy solution to window net attachment. Anybody know if there's an off-the-shelf window net that'll go in a street 996 without a cage?
Joe
- Mike Andrews - 12-09-2006
Give the guys at Dougherty or CDOC a call......... If there's a solution out there I'd think they would know about it.
- catchacab - 12-10-2006
No Safety System is perfect. No Safety System will work in every application.
The Safety System you develop for your car will be a compromise, and your choice will depend on 1.what will you use your car for, DE / Racing / Street, and what organizations you will drive with PCA / BMWCCA / NASA / SCCA etc. 2. The amount of money you are willing to spend. 3. desired comfort. 4. Personal preferences. 5. Level of safety you are trying to accomplish.
One of the first questions you will need to answer is, will you use a HANS device? Correct use of the device depends on use of compatible safety gear (seats, harnesses, roll bar/ cage and helmet) and proper installation[/b].
http://hansdevice.com/site/index.html
If you are going to be driving your car on the street, many feel that a roll cage is not safe. In an incident on the street when not wearing harnesses and helmet you may impact against the roll cage. If you are going to use a HANS device than you can not use a Harness Truss because the truss does not currently allow you to install your shoulder harnesses according to HANS specifications. I don’t use harness guide bars any more, because I want my harnesses to be as short as possible. In an incident harnesses may stretch 1/3 of their distance. In my 944 I have a full welded cage. This car is used exclusively on the track; My 993 has a DAS roll bar, and is used on both the street and track. After this upcoming season has ended, I am planning on making my 993 a dedicated track car with a welded roll cage. I do feel safer with the safety system in my 944. For me the roll bar is a compromise. Most track incidents don’t involve rollovers. I bought the roll bar to anchor my shoulder harnesses.
http://www.das-sport.com/home.asp
http://www.bkauto.com/porsche/harness.php
Seats: You must have seats with appropriate pass through for shoulder, lap and submarine straps. You may choose fixed or non fixed back seats. Non fixed back seats recline, and move forward allowing access to the rear passenger compartment. Many feel fixed back seats are safer on track than non fixed back seats. You should be aware that DOT requires seats that are used on the street to be DOT certified. My experience is that I feel more secure in a fixed back seat. You should also consider a seat back brace as additional safety equipment. If you use a HANS device make sure your seat is compatible. You will need additional space behind your head to fit the device. There are also seats with “wings�? around the head to minimize lateral head movement in an incident.
http://www.recaro.com/index.php?id=1501®ion=3&L=2
http://www.sparcousa.com/
Harnesses: Most prefer a cam lock system due to ease of use. Some advocate a 6 point system over the 5 point system. Stay away from 4 point systems and systems that integrate with your existing safety belts. A lot of BMW drivers use these. There is a lot of discussion on what belt width to use and the new hybrid belts with both 2 inch and 3 inch with belt (designed for HANS devices). Some drivers like Harnesses with a sternum strap to reduce the chance of the shoulder belts spreading in an incident.
http://www.sparcousa.com/
http://www.schrothracing.com/
Helmet: I always upgrade my helmet to the latest Snell rating. I use a HANS device, and felt that drilling into the helmet’s shell can compromise the structural integrity of the helmet. To my knowledge Arai is the only manufacturer with predrilled HANS attachment anchor sites.
http://www.araiamericas.com/Product_Tour.html
SCCA feels that use of an airbags are not compatable with full face helmets.
What do I have in my cars? In the 944 I have a full welded cage, with Recaro HANS SPG seat, and a removable steering wheel (it is the only way to get my fat body into the car) My 993 has Recaro Pole Position Seats, and a DAS Roll Bar. Like I said before I like my 944 set up better, and will upgrade my 993 set up to match my 944 when it becomes a dedicated track car.
We haven’t talked about fire suppression, kill switches and NOMEX. But that I have a funny feeling will be forth coming.
JUST REMEMBER THE MOST IMPORTANT SAFTEY EQUIPTMENT RESIDES IN YOUR HEAD!!! REMEMBER TO USE IT ALWAYS!!!
- catchacab - 12-10-2006
Mike Andrews wrote:
Quote:Larry (all),Don't tease a caged driver on the street. You never know what they will do
No offense to Joe but please do not drive a car with a cage in it on the street. Let me repeat that, DO NOT drive a caged car on the street. Unless you are a midget (no offense to midgets) your head will hit that bar in the event of an accident. And I don't care if it has padding on it, your head will not fair well.
hock:
- catchacab - 12-10-2006
http://www.teamtechmotorsports.com/index.html