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+--- Thread: 10 Biggest Mistakes On Track (/showthread.php?tid=2007)
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- Darren - 11-16-2009
bobt993 wrote:
Quote:What you are describing is correct driving by the driver's ed handbook. If you start racing and need to pick up the pace, then you will need to re-learn corner entry. It is a very difficult subject to explain and requires a high level of confidence in driver skill. A pro driver uses a very different entry and corner exit strategy, but I do not suggest attempting it without an advanced coach instructing you.I agree and disagree. The driver's ed curriculum is time tested (and mother approved). RTR DE is where many of us learned how to drive fast and the experience for many of us instructors was so profound that we feel a responsibility to give back and pass on that knowledge.
I will say (and I'd be happy to hear other racers confirm) that the time I've spent in RTR DE has prepared me for racing offline or in adverse conditions and understanding what I can/can't do better than most of my racing competition. If it's a rain race (not DE but racing) you'll see the RTR guys doing very well indeed!
In a race last year at Summit Point I had passed a few cars on the main straight by going into the dirt at 100 mph at track left and then rejoining the track ahead of them. One of my competitors in my class was flabergasted "you are so lucky you didn't wreck!" It had nothing to do with luck -- but you have to know how to go off smoothly and how to come back on smoothly.
The more advanced techniques that Bob is talking about requires a different car setup entirely. All things being equal if the car is setup right you should be able to get to a constant speed and coast through a constant radius turn (sounds obvious right?). My 996 racecar and Bob's 993 racecar are setup in a way that would seem to oversteer very badly if you drove them like a normal Street/DE car.
In the end, DE is about safety first! Thats why we teach how we teach, it's not about ultimate speed.
- Darren - 11-16-2009
ninjabones wrote:
Quote:I, for one, have made every mistake on the attached list, including an early apex at Watkins Glen (turn 10) on my 4th DE event, which resulted in a pretty nasty crash.Early apexing isn't so bad when you realize it immediately when you turn in. I wish someone had told me, before I figured it out, that you could just apex in tighter to correct an early turn-in...
Think about it -- say T3 at Summit Point. You turn in early and realize it, well heck, just apex up the curbing a couple of feet -- same apex but draw a parallel line and hit it in tighter.
- Phokaioglaukos - 11-16-2009
Darren wrote:
Quote:In a race last year at Summit Point I had passed a few cars on the main straight by going into the dirt at 100 mph at track left and then rejoining the track ahead of them.Not a technique that I can encourage. Here it would earn a trip to the tower, or worse.
- Phokaioglaukos - 11-16-2009
Darren wrote:
Quote:Early apexing isn't so bad when you realize it immediately when you turn in. I wish someone had told me, before I figured it out, that you could just apex in tighter to correct an early turn-in...Here's how I think of it--when you have turned in/apexed too early just hold the apex longer until you can start to track out on the line you intended to follow.
- Darren - 11-17-2009
Phokaioglaukos wrote:
Quote:Not a technique that I can encourage. Here it would earn a trip to the tower, or worse.
This was a race of course, very different than DE as you know. In this case two of those pesky Miatas without rearview mirrors were in my way.
I wouldn't encourage anyone to do it either but I get passed that way too. A few years ago at VIR Todd was having a handling problem in his Probe and he was going into the climbing esses and staying on the throttle letting the car go whereever it went. He would go 4 wheels on the grass every lap. Nothing wrong with that, you just can't pass on the inside of the turn in the grass. On the outside or on a straight its perfectly legitimate.
- ninjabones - 11-17-2009
Darren wrote:
Quote:Early apexing isn't so bad when you realize it immediately when you turn in. I wish someone had told me, before I figured it out, that you could just apex in tighter to correct an early turn-in...
Think about it -- say T3 at Summit Point. You turn in early and realize it, well heck, just apex up the curbing a couple of feet -- same apex but draw a parallel line and hit it in tighter.
Good point... except if you're 20 yards early, as was the case with my rookie move at the Glen early last season:? It wasn't just the early turn in... it was the magnitude of the mistake and the inability to recognize it early enough to fix it. Bot were reflections of my lack of seat time.
We all make mistakes (even Derek Jeter made a few errors in the post-season). The truly great drivers make smaller mistakes, recognize them instantaneously, and instinctually know how to correct them. They also prepare themselves for mishaps and mistakes... driving off-line, inspecting curbing, analyzing the run-off areas, and planning what to do in the case of an off.
I learned this trick from Bob (which I think he learned from Chris Cervelli): basically at every opportunity (cool down laps, etc), I'll run the entire length of the track at one edge of the road surface, examine for off-line camber changes, curbing, run-off areas, passing opportunities, marbles, different levels of grip, road patches, concrete, etc. Really helps imprint in your mind what to do if you find yourself at one of these unexpected positions.
I can say that I've driven over just about every each inch of pavement (and curbing) at Thunderbolt this season (having done about 1,000 laps). Only now do I feel like I have even a basic understanding of what to do at almost every corner in case of a mistake.
This is one of the reason's I'm nervous about racing at a few new tracks next season)... however, the reality is that I won't have the opportunity to get 1,000 practice laps at Sebring or Limerock before the next club race.
- ninjabones - 11-17-2009
bobt993 wrote:
Quote: I spoke with another guy who started racing this year and he was having a battle with a car out of his class. They were both close on lap times, but the combination was causing both of them to drop a second or two a lap.Yeah... that was me. I've watched the video of this race a few times, and every time I wonder what the heck I was doing. It's easy to get frustrated and angry, and let the "red mist" take over, especially if the slower out-of-class driver is separating you from your competition. I was diving in on him at every corner (and, consequently, he was defending at every corner). Even though his pace was about 1/2 second below mine (reflected in our qualifying times), we were both running 1-2 seconds slower because of the constant battling.
It definitely requires a lot of discipline and composure to be patient and wait for the right time to make your move. Traffic management is on the short list of things to improve next season.
- steveh - 11-17-2009
bobt993 wrote:
Quote:Steve, I thought Pinattas are a contact sport. Why not punt him? Hard to pass someone when your trying to get back on the track or stuck in the kittly litter in T1. Ask Darren for some track video of his agression at SP chasing Todd Reid. He would give a slower car one chance to move then simply rotated enough to get a good second ahead.
The Spec Racer Renault I drove this past weekend had a fiberglass nose, so contact would not have been a good idea.
I've watched Darren and Todd race first-hand (i.e., I got out of their way so they could continue their battle), and appreciate their experience and skill. Probably not a good approach for a rookie racer - more experience will eventually allow a higher risk tolerance, and I'll be less likely to receive a black flag and a lecture from the race director.
My goal is first to learn how to pass consistently without contact, even if it might involve the occasional dive-bomb or grass excursion or other wild ride. It can be done - one of the SRR hotshoes hit consistent 1:01's at Lime Rock, in an 89 HP car in traffic, and never touched anybody.
- Racingswh - 11-17-2009
Glen,
This type of interest in going faster is why you're improving so quickly. You're studying what you do already and then listening to and learning from what others do that are faster and adopting those techniques for use in your own driving. There really is no other way. Kudos to you for taking it so seriously. You also have whatever "it" is that is required to go fast.
Steve W. Hoagland