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+--- Thread: anti-sub straps (/showthread.php?tid=1378)
- scwaters - 03-04-2009
Chris - I understand the rules. Adapting the sub-belt to floor mount on the schroth belts has been an undertaking. Since every race car that Porsche races uses the sub-bar attachement maybe national could review the rule. Too late for me. The GT3/Harness package has been on wish list for so long it has been disapointing to struggle with the adaptation.
- Wally - 03-04-2009
Phokaioglaukos wrote:
Quote:I'm coming to this late, sorry. There is lot of discussion on the identical topic on Rennlist. Here's the short of it: Lap and sub belts should mount to the GT3 seat itself. That is not legal for PCA Club racing, but it is how Porsche designed the seats to work. No seat back brace should be used.
Chris, I'm going to have a good look at your car and who techs it. Look at our tech form, any year, and read the fifth item, "Racing Harness Restrain System". You will see that all harnesses must be mounted "in an approved manner consistent with PCA Club Racing requirements and the harness manufacturer's instructions". This is not my rule but a rule that has been in place for many years. It is a rule which may seem unreasonable, but a rule none the less. I have spoken with Steve, my co-chair, and we agree that this rule WILL be enforced. What other Regions permit or require is their concern, not ours. RTR is our concern and we will enforce our safety rules as they apply.
Paul/Steve
- Phokaioglaukos - 03-05-2009
Paul, this is a really important topic because, as I know you and Steve agree, safety is the #1 concern in all of our activities. I'm sure you can also appreciate my personal concern as I have GT3 seats in my GT3 and, as I start to drive a bit faster, I certainly want my seat/harness/rollbar safety system to perform properly.
When I installed the DAS Sport rollbar, GT3 seats, B-K sub bar and Schroth 6-point harnesses I made a thorough investigation of the alternatives. I also consulted the most expert safety consultants I could find. Your message, and this thread, is an excellent impetus for me to reconsider and re-investigate this whole matter. Thank you! Of course I will share whatever I learn through the appropriate channels and rely you you and Steve to communicate the rules to the Club, and enforce them aggressively.
Riesentöter has safety practices and procedures that we can all be proud of, and a safety record that others can only envy. Keep up the good work.
- catchacab - 03-05-2009
A year or two ago there was a thread on rennlist's racing forum regarding not only sub strap anchoring points but designing a saftey system. One well respected poster spoke and showed examples of sub straps secured by an eye bolt with a large diameter washer mounted through the floor board. Remember on where the floor board was so deformed by forces exerted on it by the sub strap in an incident that the sub strap was probably ineffective. The poster recommended that the mounting point(s) be reinforced bywelding a steel bar to to the chasis and mounting the sub to that bar.
If there is one thing that I have learned in life is that people and equiptment do fail and they will generally fail at the worst time. The advantage of not mounting harnesses to the samechassis points as your seat is that if your seat mounting point or bolt fails I believe that you will be afforded some protection from the harness. I wonder if there has been any testing regarding these issues.
- Darren - 03-05-2009
Of course Eric, blanket rules on this stuff is silly. Bolting anti-sub straps through a weak spot in the floor is stupid. Some cars might be strong there, some it might not. The floors weren't intended to carry loads like that, so you have to know what you are doing when you install the harnesses, of course. Nobody should be reading this thread and then decide to go into the garage and drill holes.
There have been several cars that I have refused to ride in because of the harness installation. This is primarily at non-PCA events, though I've seen it there also. One car was missing a seat bolt and the subs were hooked up to the seat bolt, totally wrong. It's almost always the anti-sub belts that have issues. I always inspect them before riding in someone's car.
I don't understand why racing rules are being referenced -- if we're going to default to racing rules then how about letting racing log books satisfy tech? I mean that in a constructive way, no disrespect intended to Paul.
- fve - 03-05-2009
Golly gee. I am sorry that i started this topic. But then again, i maybe it is good. I have read that amazing variety of opinion elsewhere, but now i am getting a sense of the amazing variety of opinion in our region.
In any case, i am attending the newbie break (brake) session and hopefully all this can be sorted out at that time. I hope.
Thank you all for your input. fve
- JoeP - 03-06-2009
While these technical discussions are interesting, RTR's decision must be a Legal one. If RTR follows PCA's rules, then PCA will bear the primary burden of defending against your heirs' attorney. If RTR knowingly sets its own rules, then RTR would be on its own in the suit even if you sign a waiver.
- Phokaioglaukos - 05-13-2009
Note that the tech form has been changed to omit the reference to the club racing rules. Installation in accordance with Porsche/Schroth instructions is the way to go for RTR DEs. The form now reads: "[size=1]Harnesses must include a submarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner consistent with the harness manufacturer’s instructions."[/size]
- Darren - 05-17-2009
Chris -- thanks for working on this.
- Phokaioglaukos - 05-17-2009
The guys who run the DE program, both in RTR and at national, deserve the credit for this.