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+--- Thread: New Detroit bailout plan (/showthread.php?tid=1404)
- catchacab - 12-14-2008
ccm911 wrote:
Quote:RCohen wrote:Quote:ChrisLook. I drove a new Corvette, and it had a ton of rattles. It also had a vibration that felt like the driveshaft was hitting the trans tunnel.
Not to pick on you, but what is the relevance of comparing the trim pieces of a sedan with a performance car? Try a comparison of similar performance vehicles, then look at the price. If you want to pay more for nicer plastic ash trays go for it.
A lot of relevance in my comparison. Why does a $17k Gplf/Rabbit have a better interior than a so called "Halo Vehicle" costing $50k?
And Nick. You can win this one by saying one thing. Either we loan them the money up front, or we pay via increased hits to social services(Welfare, Medicare, etc.). I would not be able to successfully defend my resistance to those circumstances.
But in the end, it all sucks. And where will these "bailouts" stop. Seems like every self made "Capitalist" is now crying for government money. But then, weren't those the same people who purported their interest in smaller government? At the least, a bunch of these executives need to be punished severely for being asleep at the wheel.
Chris,
Have you been in a Cayman or Boxster? The interior is poor at best for a car that costs $50K+ The interior is only nice if you upgrade it to full leather. And for squeeks and rattles check out the complaints on www.CaymanClub.net.
-Eric
- nplenzick - 12-14-2008
ccm911 wrote:
Quote:Look. I drove a new Corvette, and it had a ton of rattles. It also had a vibration that felt like the driveshaft was hitting the trans tunnel.
A lot of relevance in my comparison. Why does a $17k Gplf/Rabbit have a better interior than a so called "Halo Vehicle" costing $50k?
And Nick. You can win this one by saying one thing. Either we loan them the money up front, or we pay via increased hits to social services(Welfare, Medicare, etc.). I would not be able to successfully defend my resistance to those circumstances.
But in the end, it all sucks. And where will these "bailouts" stop. Seems like every self made "Capitalist" is now crying for government money. But then, weren't those the same people who purported their interest in smaller government? At the least, a bunch of these executives need to be punished severely for being asleep at the wheel.
AP – Bernard L. Madoff, chairman of Madoff Investment Securities .
That's a guy Chris that should be put away for life! I think what the original poster was suggesting was to find a way to be a little more creative with getting automotive industry back on it's feet and in a way that could help stimulate the economy. Your right it really all does suck and it is amazing to me that the same people who wanted less regulation and used it for their own greed now are asking the government for bailouts. Right now we have to do what ever it takes to keep this economy from slipping into a depression but that doesn't mean not holding people who created some of it responsible. Yea Chris, heads should roll! Maybe this spring I'll test ride a Corvette myself and hopfully I'll get salesman who won't puke as I try to show him what I think a Vette can do.
- Ccns23 - 12-15-2008
Quote:Chris,
Have you been in a Cayman or Boxster? The interior is poor at best for a car that costs $50K+ The interior is only nice if you upgrade it to full leather. And for squeeks and rattles check out the complaints on http://www.CaymanClub.net.
-Eric
Hey....i like my Cayman's interior. Ya, it has a fair share of squeaks and rattles, but it just give the car character
And my Cayman interior is light years above the Vettes. The only thing the vette has that I wish we did was a HUD.
But I don't think they should be bailed out. Let them go into bankruptcy. Renegotiate union contracts. They say that people will be worried about buying a car from a bankrupt company. Uh, news flash idiots, no one is buying your cars now!! Restructure and come out stronger. Don't piss my tax money away on a corporate retreat or bonuses. Don't waste it on crappy union pensions and healthcare.
Or, since this is techinally a "loan" do we as taxpayers get to share in the revenues from the interest we should be charging? Or is this an investment and when the market rebounds will we be getting a check for the dividends/profits?
- emayer - 12-15-2008
Funny how when the gov't at least tried to add stipulations to the bailout Ford was suddenly able to walk away.... Can't help but feel the whole thing is a scam for these companies to feed cheaply at the trough while the gettin' is good.
I may be in the minority here, but I am in favor of less regulation and government intervention. The risk of this is that poorly managed companies will fail. They should. Let the people decide what companies or industries are in need of a bailout simply by taxing our personal income less so we can purchase products deemed as worthy. Perhaps some sort of incentive to purchase American based products may be a worthy consideration. Of course this will never happen because that would simply undermine governmental, lobbyist, union, and industrial power... Better they choose for us anyway right? Let's face it, capitalism is dying right before us.
- Brian Minkin - 12-15-2008
I think everyone will find this video about Fords South American plant very interesting and pay particular attention to the last 10 seconds regarding the UAW.
http://info.detnews.com:80/video/index.cfm?id=1189
- nplenzick - 12-17-2008
Ccns23 wrote:
Quote:
But I don't think they should be bailed out. Let them go into bankruptcy. Renegotiate union contracts. They say that people will be worried about buying a car from a bankrupt company. Uh, news flash idiots, no one is buying your cars now!! Restructure and come out stronger. Don't piss my tax money away on a corporate retreat or bonuses. Don't waste it on crappy union pensions and healthcare.
Or, since this is techinally a "loan" do we as taxpayers get to share in the revenues from the interest we should be charging? Or is this an investment and when the market rebounds will we be getting a check for the dividends/profits?
Actually the unions were willing to compromise and stayed late into the night last week to try to get something resolved only to have a handful of republican senators beat it down. The UAW wasn't about to take the full blame for what has happened to the US auto industry and rightly so. If Porsche declared bankruptcy your telling me you would still buy one? I wouldn't! People are buying cars and trucks right now just at a much reduced rate. If they declare bankruptcy we save nothing, at least 1.5 million and maybe more will lose their jobs. 1.5 million people who will collect unemployment, 1.5 million people who will not be paying income tax. What this would do to the rest of the economy would be devastating. So what will we save? I've traveled and spent some time this year in Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio, I know first hand what the auto industry means to those people.
"Don't waste it on crappy union pensions and health care." Little harsh aren't you? How would you like to work for a company 35 or 40 years and have what was won in negotiations just go "poof sorry, it's all gone". That's the mentality that's going on here? You posting reminds me of some people I have met with who couldn't understand why a trash truck driver in my area makes about 65K a year and the collector (the guy on the back) makes about 40K. "These guys have no education" "Anybody can do this I can't believe they make that". My reply was " so why don't you apply for it and see how easy it is".
Have a little compassion my friend, don't be so jealous of a UAW worker or anyone else. Oh and yea it is a loan and the last time we did for a auto maker namely Chrysler we were paid back and then some!
- nplenzick - 12-17-2008
emayer wrote:
Quote:Funny how when the gov't at least tried to add stipulations to the bailout Ford was suddenly able to walk away.... Can't help but feel the whole thing is a scam for these companies to feed cheaply at the trough while the gettin' is good.
I may be in the minority here, but I am in favor of less regulation and government intervention. The risk of this is that poorly managed companies will fail. They should. Let the people decide what companies or industries are in need of a bailout simply by taxing our personal income less so we can purchase products deemed as worthy. Perhaps some sort of incentive to purchase American based products may be a worthy consideration. Of course this will never happen because that would simply undermine governmental, lobbyist, union, and industrial power... Better they choose for us anyway right? Let's face it, capitalism is dying right before us.
Pure capitalism is a figment of your imagination, it doesn't work neither would pure socialism. It's the combination of the two that works not one or the other. Less regulation got us into this mess. More intelligent regulation is what is needed.
You see the problem is greed, you expect a company to do the right thing, they seldom do unless they have a regulation to force them to do it. I'll use this as a prime example; last year the CEO of Gulfstream was called to testify in front of Congress as to why the trailers they sold to HUD to shelter some of the homeless near New Orleans who were recovering from hurricane damage were filled with toxic substances and made many people sick. The company was fully aware of the materials they were using. When a senator asked the CEO why they were using it his reply was " there was simply no federal regulation to say we couldn't". I watched this live at the time and couldn't believe what I was hearing. Capitalism dying? Hardly, couldn't think of a better time for people who have the balls to invest in the stock market then now!
- nplenzick - 12-17-2008
Brian Minkin wrote:
Quote:I think everyone will find this video about Fords South American plant very interesting and pay particular attention to the last 10 seconds regarding the UAW.
http://info.detnews.com:80/video/index.cfm?id=1189
I wonder how much Ford pays the workers in Brazil? Health care? Environmental regulations? What were the tax incentives they received? I would really like to know the whole story. The bottom line is we need workers to make a good wage here, it filters through out the rest of the economy. Unions need to compromise in these tough economic times but they are hardly the only cause of the problems the US auto industry is facing.
Actually I'm starting to feel a little ripped off. If the UAW workers are getting paid so much more then the Japanese and European workers why is it a comparable US car is cheaper?
- Ccns23 - 12-17-2008
Little touchy aren't we? Sorry, but I still feel the way I feel. The unions, who aren't the entire problem, are a big part of the problem. They have not made nearly enough concessions. The problem is the contracts were shit from the beginning. But, since the UAW basically stomps their feet like a spoiled child when they don't get their way, what could the automakers do? Nothing, they have to give in due to ridiculous union policies. Then, they put out subpar products built by people with little to no pride in their work. Yes, this is a generalization, but really what motivation do these people really have? None. If they get layed off, they still get 100% of their pay until their contract runs out. What bullshit is that? Doesn't happen in the real world, only the fantasy world of the unions.
And as far as retirement and health care. Don't even get me started. How much do you pay for healthcare? How much do you pay for retirement? I know I pay about 30% of my income for both. These asshats get 100% of both paid for. God forbid they have to use any part of their ridiculous union salaries to pay for the things the rest of the country has to.
Again, I know the union is not 100% to blame. But when some of these automakers are starting out 3 BILLION in the hole due to the unions you have to say enough is enough. The ONLY reason the unions are willing to make any concessions at all is because they see the gravy train coming to an end. And now the automakers have the upper hand for once.
- Ccns23 - 12-17-2008
And one more thing. If any or all of the big 3 go into bankruptcy it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone in the company will lose their jobs. Will there be job losses? Absolutely, but not everyone will. I think they can declare bankruptcy now and come out ahead of the game within the next 2 years. I still don't see exactly what they plan on doing with the "loan" they are asking for either. No one is giving a clear, concise plan on what they will use the money for and what they plan on doing in the future. They just have their hands out.
Funny how we don't see the foreign carmakers looking for handouts in their respective country's even though some of them are in the same boat as the big 3 in regards to sales. Wonder why that is???