+- Riesentöter Forums (https://rtr-pca.org/forum)
+-- Forum: Club Activities (https://rtr-pca.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=24)
+--- Forum: Driver's Education (https://rtr-pca.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=29)
+--- Thread: Der Gasser (/showthread.php?tid=80)
- catchacab - 09-24-2006
Chris,
Many street insurers exclude all track events for their coverages. There are some street insurers that do have coverage for track events. These insurers either feel their overall financial exposure is not increased for DE events due to overall improved driver skill, or may just have higher premiums to cover these expenses. I don’t have the data to back this up I have repeatedly heard that an incident per mile of track time in DE is less than that of the street.
What are your definitions of unnecessary chances: Is it altering you line slightly changing your throttle or brake modulation? Increasing or decreasing your speed, acceleration or deceleration on a section of the track? Changing your braking point?
Track insurance usually has a deductible of 20% . Take one of those fancy 997’s at a price of $90K, that is a deductible of $18K. That is a pretty hefty chunk of change for me. I don’t feel that American Collectors decision to drop DE insurance will affect the driving styles of many DE participants.
I feel that all of us try to drive safely, but there is an inherent danger in our leisurely pursuit. If we can agree we drive on the street at 20-30% of our driving skill, with a rare brief increase due to an unexpected situation, any prolonged driving experience at any level above 3/10 increases the level of an unintended outcome. The unintended outcome can come from driver error, mechanical failure, or an unexpected change in the track.
We need to clarify what you define as “activity�? in your article. Is it vehicular damage, on off track excursion (from 1 to 4 wheels off, with out damage), the line not being perfectly adhered to, a breaking point and/or turn in point missed, the car exceeding the slip angle, experiencing under or over steer. Keep in mind the same off in many turns at Summit Point or on the infield of Pocono that doesn’t result in damage, can result in severe damage at many turns at the Glen.
Car to car contact in breaking zones is possible. As a friend and instructor (he has been driving on track for about 24 years, has taught many of our current instructors, and is respected by most of the more mature instructors) said at Summit after punting a car into the gravel (in the red group) “Who put the stop sign up at turn one?�?
I haven’t wrecked yet. It may happen and I unwillingly accept that. While I was a “Green�? driver, I had the following experiences. At the Glen with NNJR in the rain exiting turn 2 and entering turn 3, I lost traction on my front wheels while driving at a relatively slow speed I hydroplaned through a stream crossing the track (had to change my underwear after that one). I spun and went off track in turn 5 at Mid Ohio with Potomac, because I lifted as I approached track out. The turn is an uphill left hander that transitions to a down hill about 15 feet before track out. Then the following day I went off straight at the same turn. All were my error, and I had an instructor in the car with me. I was fortunate that there was plenty of run off room. A month ago I put my two front wheels off in turn five at Summit, when my front left wheel locked up (my new track car is supposed to have ABS, (failed servo in the ABS pump). I take responsibility for that one too. I learned from all of my experiences.
Any increase in speed above what we experience legally on the street fro a rookie DE student even on street tires and brakes can lead to an unexpected outcome. A few years ago I was watching one of those police chase shows. The police were chasing a Toyota at about 90 mph on a California freeway. The Toyota attempted to take an exit ramp from the middle lane. He put on his brakes and turned right. He wound up in the guard rail about 75 feet before the exit. My point is most drivers and this includes track newbies do not understand the dynamics involved in higher speed car control. How can this be taught? In a class room, with video, on a skid pad, during AX and on the track. The tracks we go to need to construct facilities other than the track itself to teach threshold breaking, heel/toe, throttle steer, correct use of ABS, and under/over steer. Even with this training things do happen, drivers make errors and track conditions change. I have attended two professional driving schools that taught what I have just described. This winter I would like to attend either a stunt driving school or an ice driving school to learn how to regain control of an out of control vehicle.
I am not the best driver, in fact I fell I have a lot to learn and experience. When I am on the track I am there to have fun and learn about my car, driving and car control. I incrementally increase my comfort envelope. This does not make me the fastest driver, but keeps me happy. What keeps me coming back and many of our colleagues is the excitement of danger and the challenge to do it better than before.
When one is on the track always have respect. Respect yourself, your limits, your instructor (if you have one), your car and its limits, your fellow drivers, the track, our region and its many volunteers who make these opportunities available for us and the corner workers.
I feel there is a problem. It is not with our DE program which is excellent!!! The problem lies in the cars many are driving. Many are too powerful, have too many electronics to cover up mistakes, which would have been recognized in other vehicles. Some cars are so advance that they almost drive themselves. The newer cars are basically just too good for a beginning driver.
Chris, I look forward to your reply. I know discussion can help our membership.
More to follow,
Eric
- ccm911 - 09-25-2006
Eric:
What can I say? I agree with what you are saying completely. It's interesting that you seem to have arrived at the same conclusions I have.
Going off is no big deal. Going off when you are just begining is.
After college I worked or a couple years at a ski shop and spent a lot of time on the slopes. The rule for skiing was as follows: "If you can not get around an obstacle(fallen skier, bare spot, etc.) in a safe manner, then you are skiing out of contol". I think this pretty much sums up what should be going on out on the track when we are discussing Drivers Education. As for racing, it is quite different as the participants have inherently accepted a higher level of risk due to the natue of compeition.
Some of the "fossils" in our club have told me about the time when the Carerras came out in 1984. They thought the cars were too fast, and that bad things would happen. But they really didn't. It was just a period of adjustment. Remember, at that time folks were running a lot of 914s and stuff like that. So it really must not be the cars.
So what is it? The DE program? Not at all. Drivers Ed has done much more good or folks and their driving by allowing folks to explore the outer limits of driving in a controlled environment. So far so good. Now lets add one more thing. "Outer Limits WHEN, and only when, the student has gotten comfortable on the track. Certainly not the first time out.
And I keep seeing these references to rain. As if that absolves everything. Well, going back to our skiing example, shouldn't folks adjust their driving style in the wet. How about backing off a bit. How about driving in control?
It's not the cars, and it certainly is not the DE program. So what is it?
It is image. Yes, driving seems to have become an "image sport" where the emphasis has slightly shifted away from education, to speed. Listen around the next time you are in the pits. It is all about who passed who. Who went the fastest. It's rare to hear folks talking about technical stuff. Except for the veterans. The guys who have been around a bit have risen above the "machismo factor" and drive for themselves. Not to impress anyone.
So I really think that is the goal. Teach the new folks to tone it down a notch in the begining, and we hould see less bad stuff on the track. Take away the high-school football player mentality and raise it up a notch.
After all, cars don't kill, people do".
CCM
- jakp993 - 09-25-2006
A few of us were talking about this topic during the MAW event this past weekend. One of the the issues here is that a novice student has no clue where the limit is, and has no idea of the consequences of his/her actions. So you end up with a sequence of actions that can end up in an "incident". For example, a student can be driving totally within themselves, say at 60%. That would certainly not raise my concern as an instructor. However, add to that a complete unawareness of the cause/effect relationship between driving inputs and their results , and you can get into trouble. Apply the brake in the middle of that 60% corner and you probably have an issue on your hands.
So what do we do? Have our students drive at a rate of speed that takes into consideration every possible mistake they could make? I don't think that's the answer. We'd all be driving at highway speeds and that's not what we are trying to teach.
Our little discussion group came up with an alternative. Do a better job of letting students experience the cause/effect relationships in a safe environment. We teach this stuff in the classroom, but a student needs to experience it first hand for it to really sink in. In fact, some DE programs make a car control clinic a pre-requisite to getting on the track.
Here's an idea that was kicked around.
A couple of tracks we visit have skidpad facilities, namely Jefferson and Shenandoah. We used to use the Jefferson skidpad in the past but we got away from it in recent years. The Shenandoah facility is much improved over the Jefferson pad.
What if we made a skidpad session available for all participants? We determined that we could cycle everyone through the skidpad in a weekend, giving everyone 5-10 minutes on the pad. That may not sound like much, but anyone that's been on a skidpad knows that's a ton of time.
The objective is to teach students what happens when you lift in a corner, what understeer feels like, how to correct oversteer, etc. This would give the students an opportunity to experience these dynamics in a safe environment so they understand what they are feeling on the track at speed, and to know the consequences of their driving inputs.
Should we make this mandatory if we offer it at an event? Should this be a prerequisite for driving solo?
I'd love your views on this.
Take care,
Jack
- smankow - 09-25-2006
Chris, you bring up a good scenerio with skiing and being in control. But you can be in complete control and have an incident. Taking your skiing example, you see a fallen skier and do what you have to do to get around the skier in a safe manner. Now, you're skiing in control but hit a patch of ice and your skis slide out from under you - are you skiing out of control? I think not.
Taking the example to the track, on Sunday we had a car blow on oil line and drop oil from T3 - T5. The corner workers had the debris flags out, but you don't know what's on the track and you slow down safely. You drive slowly through a turn and hit oil and slide off the track. Were you driving out of control? I think not.
I think that Jack was trying to say something similar in his post, too. You can be prepared for things to happen but something unexpected may still happen. Maybe that's why it's called an accident rather than an on purpose.
Steve
- smankow - 09-25-2006
jakp993 wrote:
Quote:What if we made a skidpad session available for all participants? We determined that we could cycle everyone through the skidpad in a weekend, giving everyone 5-10 minutes on the pad. That may not sound like much, but anyone that's been on a skidpad knows that's a ton of time.
The objective is to teach students what happens when you lift in a corner, what understeer feels like, how to correct oversteer, etc. This would give the students an opportunity to experience these dynamics in a safe environment so they understand what they are feeling on the track at speed, and to know the consequences of their driving inputs.
Should we make this mandatory if we offer it at an event? Should this be a prerequisite for driving solo?
I'd love your views on this.
Take care,
Jack
I'd like to see us use the skid pad on more occassions. It is a great learning tool, as mentioned. We have used the skip pad at SP, but we need to organize it a little better to faciliate both the students and the instructors. Yes, it helps to have an instructor in the car initially to talk about oversteer and understeer and how to identify and correct.
An idea would be to cycle instructors and students between run groups, but have the students sign up for a particular time or maybe with a particular instructor. In this fashion, everyone would be able to keep their run groups, work assignments, etc. and learn at a time that would be better for them.
As for participation, I'd make it mandatory for instructed group students and have them get time preferences. Any open times would be based upon availability for the other groups.
Steve
- catchacab - 09-25-2006
Jack,
You hit the nail on the head. The students need to feel over/under steer. The skid pad is a safe place for the instructors to demonstrate cause and effect. All new students should be required to go on the skid pad before entering the track, if the skid pad is available at the facility.
Chris,
A little exercize to show that it is not only speed that can affect outcomes. Pick any corner at any track, and note your speed at turn in, apex and track out. Next lap go down the straight at your turn in speed, turn in at that same speed without using your brakes, match the speeds at apex and track out if you make it
hock:.More is coming,
Eric
- Tony356993 - 09-25-2006
Quote:The objective is to teach students what happens when you lift in a corner, what understeer feels like, how to correct oversteer, etc. This would give the students an opportunity to experience these dynamics in a safe environment so they understand what they are feeling on the track at speed, and to know the consequences of their driving inputs
This is the exact reason that I always drive at the track in the rain and now feel that if my student wants to go in the rain, I'm ready since I can really teach smoothness and car control.
Potomac mandates a car control clinic and I have driven with and instructed for that region and there are incidents there also. While I feel that a car control clinic may not be the answer, I do think the skid pad can help everyone.......students and instructors. All the classroom in the world may still not stop a mid-corner lift, early apexing & pinching a turn. Real car experiences are much more vivid and long lasting.
Remember, we are fighting against logic when we teach our students that more throttle and unwinding the wheel will actually help them when it looks like they might run out of track.
My green student this weekend performed better in the rain then when it was dry. He really enjoyed and learned from the experience. If we don't want anything bad to ever happen...........then nothing will happen.
Quote:Sandor(much more) and I work pretty hard to get out a quality publication each month, and based on your comments, it is awesome to know that people are actually reading what we publish.
Chris,
The National Inquirer has a lot of readers, are they accurate........or is it humor/satire? You're articles in Der Gasser have been good at times but my only point here is that I think you crossed the line. It was not satire and it was not funny. If you were looking for a reaction to your article..........congrats. If you need to get reaction from your articles, try another venue. Did you ever think that some of your other articles were enjoyed by the club? If you did not get a reaction, were they not enjoyed? I have enjoyed some, but not this one. Lately, they have become more and more bitter and jaded. You have every right to submit them and I have every right to disagree. It's America. Come to the track again and re-experience a top notched DE program before you feel you need to be critical again. You can drive a slower car if you like.
I've driven with many regions and RTR is dam good.Tony Scalies
- Wellardmac - 09-25-2006
Guys, you might want to take this discussion to the DE thread where others might see it.
-W
- smankow - 09-25-2006
catchacab wrote:
Quote: A little exercize to show that it is not only speed that can affect outcomes. Pick any corner at any track, and note your speed at turn in, apex and track out. Next lap go down the straight at your turn in speed, turn in at that same speed without using your brakes, match the speeds at apex and track out if you make itEric, this is over simplified but I agree with you 100%. What this scenerio will show you is that weight transfer is also a major player in the negotiating a turn. If you follow this example, you will learn that either you can take the turn faster or you will not be able to make the turn and possibly spin. I'm not sure what you are trying to identify in this exercise, though.
Steve
- TwentySix - 09-25-2006
catchacab wrote:
Quote:[size=2] My point is most drivers and this includes track newbies do not understand the dynamics involved in higher speed car control. How can this be taught? In a class room, with video, on a skid pad, during AX and on the track. The tracks we go to need to construct facilities other than the track itself to teach threshold breaking, heel/toe, throttle steer, correct use of ABS, and under/over steer. [/size]
jakp993 wrote:
Quote:What if we made a skidpad session available for all participants? ........The objective is to teach students what happens when you lift in a corner, what understeer feels like, how to correct oversteer, etc. This would give the students an opportunity to experience these dynamics in a safe environment so they understand what they are feeling on the track at speed, and to know the consequences of their driving inputs.A lot of ground could be covered with an in-depth autocross school, like the one we had at Vet Stadium in 2003 (though the space it was done on was cut in half at the last minute) There was in-car instruction, skid pad, threshold braking, slaloms... I had always thought it would be a great way for the DE participants to learn basic car control/dynamics before they got to the track. It could be done locally so more people would have access to it, as opposed to only being able to do the skidpads at the Summit facility. Lime Rock also has a skidpad (I always wondered why RTR never goes there, but I digress...) for Skippy School which teaches the kind of basics I'm talking about, as does most pro driver schools, including the Porsche Driving Experience, here and in Europe.