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+--- Thread: Red Flags Incident at The Glen (/showthread.php?tid=1254)
- dmano - 08-08-2008
You all know the Yugo is really a Fiat
- bobt993 - 08-08-2008
George3 wrote:
Quote:Quote:bobt993 wrote:Quote: I may start bringing a Yugo to the Glen as a throw-away track car. :?
Yes, Bob. . . . I agree.
I think you would make an excellent Yugo driver.
Quote:Probably, but still better than you driving and older 911 without PSM......
hock:
- George3 - 08-08-2008
No doubt about it.
That's why I'm gonna get an older 911 to practice.
You just wait.
- fasthonda - 08-08-2008
http://daveyugo.com/_wsn/page3.html
i've seen this car in person racing at least 5-6 times (quite some time ago). i've seen the owner towing it to the track with a Yugo, too!
when breathed upon, those Fiat engines can make some sauce..... it sounds super nasty in person; i spoke to the owner, and he told me he revs it to well over 8k rpm......
todd
- emayer - 08-09-2008
George3 wrote:
Quote:No doubt about it.You touch on an important point I've been considering as well. Is it better to learn on an older (pre- PSM era) Porsche despite the fact that within a few years it is safe to say that all cars will have some form of ESP? To stretch the analogy further, I don't see anyone practicing with 60's vintage cars based on the argument that it will make them better drivers of later versions. I believe the theory that there is plenty to learn driving cars without "electronic oversight" but in the end will it make a big difference to someone driving a newer car provided they are serious about technique and listen to instruction?
That's why I'm gonna get an older 911 to practice.
You just wait.
- bobt993 - 08-09-2008
emayer wrote:
Quote:George3 wrote:Eric, the answer is yes. PSM is an aid in correcting driver error in car balance/slip angle. A simple analogy would be training wheels on a bicycle. The added balance allows more tilt while you learn balance, but cannot stop you from leaning way past the center of gravity and having a big spill. Understand Porsche is a car company that was severely slapped by their biggest market (USA) from accidents blammed on the cars demanding skill level. The newer chassis has been purposely designed to reduce this nature.Quote:No doubt about it.You touch on an important point I've been considering as well. Is it better to learn on an older (pre- PSM era) Porsche despite the fact that within a few years it is safe to say that all cars will have some form of ESP? To stretch the analogy further, I don't see anyone practicing with 60's vintage cars based on the argument that it will make them better drivers of later versions. I believe the theory that there is plenty to learn driving cars without "electronic oversight" but in the end will it make a big difference to someone driving a newer car provided they are serious about technique and listen to instruction?
That's why I'm gonna get an older 911 to practice.
You just wait.
- Phokaioglaukos - 08-09-2008
Think 996 GT3--ABS but no other electronic nannies. I proudly claim all my errors as my own.
Of course a Spec Miata doesn't even have ABS, and I have three flat-spotted tires to prove it. With 89 HP it really shows when I overbrake for a turn. Much to learn.....
- fasthonda - 08-09-2008
hi. i agree with bob t; a student learns more with less 'nannies'. if i had to pick the 'perfect' porsche for a first timer to show up with at a track event, it would probably be an early 944. or a late 70s thru 80s 911. it is so much easier to teach in a car like above; a car that is not mega powerful, yet responds well to driver inputs. these cars are 'good-teachable' because when a driver makes an error, the car responds and shows them that they have done wrong! as an instructor, i can say something along the lines of 'see -- you just did xyz, and the car responded with abc; just as you learned it would in class!'. plus, those older (if left mostly stock) cars are much slower, and tend not to get to the 'warp factor 8' speeds so quickly, thereby making mistakes generally less costly....
that being said, i think it is tough teaching a brand newbie in a car such as a 911 twin turbo; very much can be done wrong, yet the electronics will make it 'ok'; the car will still circulate the track at a very good clip, even when tons of mistakes are being made. its tough as an instructor, partly because i am always saying 'thats wrong; don't do that! -- no, no, no, no', yet the student sees himself/herself passing everything on the track (due to the amazing nature of the newer cars). and then, what can happen is bad, when a big enough mistake is made that the PSM/ESP/etc etc can't save the car, and it goes off in a big big way..... i really try to keep a tight leash on these newer cars, as an instructor, and always really try to impress on the students how important it is to learn to drive 'correctly'. i always try to take the time to take out a student in my car (or theirs) and show them the 'right' way around, so that they can see/feel/hear what the sensation of the 'right' way around is. this drive-around tends to strengthen my position of explaining that they are making mistakes, and that THIS way (smooth, quiet-hands, gentle inputs, smooth shifts, correct car placement and consistency) is the RIGHT way; even with all the electronics, a student can feel the difference quite easily between a car that is being driven correctly, and by-the-book, and one that is being forced to 'save' itself constantly with the nannies..... right after a short ride like that, the student typically really understands, and this in turn helps the learning process.
all the above is instantly notable in an older 911! you do it 'wrong' and the car tells you in no-uncertain terms! you do it 'right' and the car rewards with an amazing feeling! its as simple as that!
todd
PS after a student learns in a 'no frills' car; he/she might then graduate to a modern, super fast car. i would be sure that he/she will be able to extract quite a lot of performance from said new car, and would expect that he/she would most likely be less likely to have an expensive incident.....
PPS my first car ever on track was a 91 miata, no-package car! no abs, no power steering, nothing! a perfect learner car!
- Graham - 08-09-2008
Todd, Bob,
I agree 100% with you both. I have learned more in my 89-911 than I did in the Boxsta'. The newer car was great for wizzing around and initially learning but once the 911 showed up, it was a whole new ball game.
Driving these days has to be flawless as possible to keep up with the higher hp cars and better drivers. I am finding that I can learn something each time I am out on the track and owe that to the older 911 giving me constant feed back and not suppressing any mistakes with "nannies" as Todd calls them.
Thanks for the input.
-Graham
- larrybard - 08-09-2008
fasthonda wrote:
Quote:if i had to pick the 'perfect' porsche for a first timer to show up with at a track event, it would probably be an early 944. or a late 70s thru 80s 911. it is so much easier to teach in a car like above; a car that is not mega powerful, yet responds well to driver inputs. these cars are 'good-teachable' because when a driver makes an error, the car responds and shows them that they have done wrong!
Gee, I thought my 993 was sort of like that? Please don't tell me I ought to trade it in for an early 944, late '70s or '80s 911 -- or a Miata! -- just when I thought I was getting the hang of the 993's handling!
