+- Riesentöter Forums (https://rtr-pca.org/forum)
+-- Forum: Club Activities (https://rtr-pca.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=24)
+--- Forum: Driver's Education (https://rtr-pca.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=29)
+--- Thread: GT3 VS Z06 (/showthread.php?tid=214)
- Racingswh - 01-10-2007
For dmano Are you racing the AIX car at VIR in February?
Interesting to read the Z06/GT3 comparo. Frightening to read actually.
The aids/no aids debate I find interesting as well. Put a competent driver in a car with electronic aids and they will be faster than a less competent driver in the same car. Guys and Girls that are getting around a track at a respectable pace are doing so because they are driving well certainly not because of the aids. They may be making use of those aids to go as fast as they do but they are still driving the car.
Case in point: Nigel Mansell 1992 F1 World Champ in the FW14B with active suspension and electronic gearbox. 1993 Champ car champ. No aids, all driver. Would Senna or even Prost have been faster than Mansell in the same F1 car in 92'? Probably. Were the aids helping Mansell go as fast as he did? Of course, but he was still one of the best racing car drivers in the world at that time.
I feel that electronic aids for those that are regularly activating them from improper driving technique are an extremely important feature if those aids are helping to avoid a serious incident. The RTR instructors do an excellent job. As they teach the fundamentals of driving the reliance on those aids just to maintain control of the car will diminish for the new DE driver.
- catchacab - 01-11-2007
We are not driving former F1, nor are we as skilled as the least skilled F1 driver. For DE is should be about driving. Not about being the fastest driver (A few exceptions to that rule, names withheld to protect the those fast drivers who are fast and safe)
If you can't drive the car well, then you shouldn't be driving it fast!
Learn to Drive, and Drive to Learn!
If you want to be fast and use electronics get Play Station Gran Tursimo, you may even lap the Glen faster than the _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.
- Racingswh - 01-11-2007
catchacab wrote:
Quote:We are not driving former F1, nor are we as skilled as the least skilled F1 driver. For DE is should be about driving. Not about being the fastest driver (A few exceptions to that rule, names withheld to protect the those fast drivers who are fast and safe)Somehow I think it's believed that electronics are making a driver fast? They may be helping a driver to go as fast as they are but if they aren't using the correct techniques then they would be slower. Whenever PSM intervenes power is being robbed, brakes are being applied and the car is being slowed. If a driver is getting around extremely well then they obviously are doing so without getting the PSM to activate much if at all.
If you can't drive the car well, then you shouldn't be driving it fast!
Learn to Drive, and Drive to Learn!
Believe me I clearly understand the argument. I know that being able to get around well in a car that's more "pure" and driver oriented is very satisfying. I just don't think that going fast in the newer cars, most of which have electronic driver aids of one type or another, should be looked down on. It takes quite a bit of skill to get around well in a 3700 lb (w/ driver) car regardless of the electronic aids.
I am certainly not condoning inexperienced drivers flying around recklessly with the only thing saving their butts are the electronic aids their car has. That's why we have exceptional RTR instructors. They are extremely good at teaching the correct driving techniques to new drivers and helping them to realize the mistakes they are making in the car. From my observation most everyone out there that has come up through the RTR system goes at their own pace, is safe, and has a great time.
I certainly agree with the can't drive well shouldn't drive fast statement. It's an impossible dream. All we need to do is look at people on the Turnpike, 309, 202 bypass, 422 or wherever every morning and know that that won't ever happen. Most people are driving too fast for their level of ability. I would have to say that at a DE event it happens way less than what we all experience in public everyday.
I am not sure what you meant about Playstation Gran Turismo. Watkins Glen isn't on that game.
- catchacab - 01-11-2007
I have driven on the track mostly in cars with out electronic aids. And I have driven a few Z06s on the track.
It was late on a hot, humid day in Florida, I was in a Z06, I was seeing the red mist and braked too late going into a corner. The electronic aids saved my butt. Is that a good thing? For the wallet, yes. If I didn't realize my series of mistakes leading to that point, then NO. Fortunately, I had the experience to realize what happened, and take appropriate action (parked the car, it was hard because it was open track).
It is easier to drive a newer car (boxster and 996/7) faster and smoother than most older cars. The newer cars do handle better. The problem that I have with electronic aids on the track is with it applying the brakes to stabilize the car. Some students don't feel when this is happening. They interpret that the car is stable and can be driven harder, and faster on the next lap. By reducing the cars natural tendencies to under/over-steer (depending on the driver inputs and situation), and by increasing this threshold until the car is out of control, in my opinion reduces the education the student is receiving and increases the possibility for more serious incident.
The electronic aids we are discussing were designed for use on the street, and are well suited to saving one's behind. Generally, when one of these aids are activated on the street, it is usually due to; gross driver error (incorrect inputs), or a surprise (animal, slick road, etc). In these situations the car is usually not being pushed to the limits and the electronic aid help by taking appropriate action to keep the car going in the direction it was intended. Conversely on the track, the car is generally being pushed to its limits (or at least someone is trying to). This is the difference.
Drive au natural
- Racingswh - 01-11-2007
catchacab wrote:
Quote: The problem that I have with electronic aids on the track is with it applying the brakes to stabilize the car. Some students don't feel when this is happening.
This is an excellent point and I can certainly see how this could be the case.
IMO it's the job of the instructors to be aware of how a car feels even with the slightest intervention of an electronic aid from poor driving technique by the student. Because of this it's almost required that the instructors become very familiar with the newer cars and the electronic aids they have on them. Then they should be able to clearly explain to the student that what they are feeling is from doing something incorrectly and the stability management system is actually masking their mistake(s).
I also believe that someone who drives in DE and utilizes the stability management system regularly just to keep the car on the road needs more personal instruction. They shouldn't be moved up in class based on pace alone. Driving technique and safety is paramount.
- Tony356993 - 01-11-2007
Quote:They shouldn't be moved up in class based on pace alone. Driving technique and safety is paramount.
i agree! this is my instructing philosophy. i have to convince many folks that speed is not enough. on the other hand, a technically perfect line and track aware driver that is slow should not be moved up either.
- stentech1 - 01-11-2007
I know that the statistics on my 996tt show the insurance companies that these aids are decreasing the amount of these cars that get wadded up. It cost me less to insure my 996tt than to insure my 92 911 turbo even though the 996tt makes 100 more hp. These statistics gathered by the insurance companies staff of pocket protector wearing, propeller heads, prove the value of PSM in the real world. Not to mention many of the people who buy these cars do not have a clue how to drive them and properly utilize their performance. These owners are what I call polishers We that are involved in the de program may be perceived to be punishers. But weather you own one of these cars to drive and impress on lookers or to beat like a rental at the track, all of these aids are here to stay and the body shops hate it. As swh said better drivers would go faster than less skilled drivers regardless of whom has driving aids.
Problem is that many drivers without these driving aids want the people with these aids to some how feel like they are less skilled, and that the driving aids are magically getting them around the track. Well sorry to break it to you. You are not magical drivers because you can drive without these technologies.
We who drive Porsches are very fortunate because the driving aids that are incorporated into our cars require very very aggressive driving to activate, and the systems functions better than any other in the industry. I have driven cars that had driving aids that worked so poorly that I would never own one (E55 AMGJUNK)It was pretty fast though.
By the way Minkin what the F%&* is a cookie
- stentech1 - 01-11-2007
I am not sure what I like most about the Z06 the radio from the Suburban or the steering wheel from the Malibu. Now I remember the body panels are great to use for sledding, but lack the quality of the sleds sold at Wall Mart. The other great thing is that the brakes on the car don't work well for track applications but they would make a worthy brake upgrade for a Colbolt SS or a Venture minivan.
- Wally - 01-12-2007
stentech1 wrote:
Quote:I am not sure what I like most about the Z06 the radio from the Suburban or the steering wheel from the Malibu. Now I remember the body panels are great to use for sledding, but lack the quality of the sleds sold at Wall Mart. The other great thing is that the brakes on the car don't work well for track applications but they would make a worthy brake upgrade for a Colbolt SS or a Venture minivan.
Double OUCH!
hock:hock: But I guess you're one of those people who like to spend morethan double the money for the equivalent fun. Besides, who needs good brakes
when you have all these wondrous electronic aids to get you around the track?
- Tony356993 - 01-12-2007
Quote:The other great thing is that the brakes on the car don't work well for track applications but they would make a worthy brake upgrade for a Colbolt SS or a Venture minivan.
Dead on! It's a great street car for the money though.