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+--- Thread: New Detroit bailout plan (/showthread.php?tid=1404)
- nplenzick - 12-18-2008
Much of your proposals are pretty much the Obama platform so you'll be happy to see that many of the things you suggest will start to be implemented starting January 20.
Let me comment on a few other's;
"a. People would generally stay with their employer for a very long time. In recent time, everyone is always looking for the better job or company." What's wrong with looking and aspiring to a better job? What long term commitments are companies making to their employees? Pensions? Hell I know a guy who works for a very large corporation who along with other's in Mid management lost ALL of their pension. 30+ years. How would you expect the younger employees to react to that?
"Corporations would make decisions based on long term projections and expectations. " Ah, there lye's the number one problem with the US auto industry and many other's here in this country. One of the reasons we're getting our ass kicked.
"Why with a wonderful convention center does Philadelphia not attract many large conventions? It is the union contracts and ridiculous work rules that steer convention planners elsewhere. " Do you know that to be true? I do many shows through out the year. In a few weeks I'll be at the Washington DC convention center with union employees for the International Motorcycle show , the following week that shows goes to New York City (more union workers) , and then to other large cities . I would think there's more to it then what you suggest.
"b. Environmental laws have made doing business cost prohibitive in our country for some businesses." Why should we consider this? The current administration has already weakened many of these laws and is trying to do more in it's last few days. What have we gained from it? Instead of weakening, we need to embrace them and capture the technology that's gained from them and sell it to developing countries that will need it. China for one is desperate for this technology, or should we just wait for them to develop this technology and we buy it from them?
" OPEC is not our friend, the manipulation of oil prices has contributed to this crisis." I couldn't agree more with this! This has been the single biggest problem for retailers up to the middle of September when the "fear factor" kicked in. Many people who heat their homes with oil locked in at $4.75 per gallon. Now that same fuel oil is in the low $2.00 range. So someone who locked in in the summer with a 1000 gal has had at least $2000.00 taken out of their spendable income. Not to mention the $4.50 a gallon gas they were paying this past summer and the $5.00 a gallon I was paying for diesel fuel. A few weeks after the election in a 60 minutes interview Obama was asked if it's still important with the falling energy prices to develop alternative means. His reply "it's more important now then ever"
4. "The government must give up the idea that they can support all senior citizens through Social Security and Medicaid." I think your stereotyping here, these two programmes never were meant to support, they have and are there only to supplement.
I have always lived with in my means, I live in a house that has about the same sq ft that I grew up in. Yet I'm surrounded by McMansions. So people certainly need to live within there means.
Change is coming and it starts January 20, 2009
- emayer - 12-18-2008
Seems overly optimistic to hang our country's hopes on the rhetoric of one individual especially with a cabinet that for the most part seems like a reunion tour!
For our sake though , I can only hope you're right.....
- nplenzick - 12-19-2008
Obama's picking the best of the best. Except for the few on the far left and the right he is being applauded for his centrist appointments. Unlike the current administration who has appointing a bunch of yes people, Obama is appointing people who speak their mind. The sign of a true leader.
Overly optimistic? I'm hardly an overly optimistic person ( my friends can verify that), but I know a good thing when I see it. If I had the money I'd be buying up as much real estate as I could afford right now, what little funds I have are being invested in the stock market right now. The skeptics can sit on the sideline and for the most part that's what sceptic's do.
Change is coming my friend, you can embrace it and look forward to it, or you can sit on the sideline and complain about it. Ether way it starts January 20, 2009
- emayer - 12-19-2008
Unless one has been in isolation for the past year(s), change is already occuring and will continue through and beyond Jan 20. No President can affect this alone as the issues here are on a global scale and go well beyond politics to the core values of our society. The ideas listed here would do more to address the fundamental issues in the long-term than anything proposed by a politician of either party thus far. I am not convinced yet that we as a nation are at the point of being able to reprioritize, though willingly or not, this kind of change is inevitable lest we follow the historical course of the Roman Empire....
Forgive me for being cynical, but based on the actions of our leadership over the past decades and the fact that he already has had to reneg on major aspects of his platform, I have little reason to think Obama will be much different in the end. This is not entirely his fault, but again I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong on this.
This is obviously a buyer's market for those with the means to invest in real estate or stocks and can afford to sit tight.... Not bad for exotic cars either.... Oops!- Did I say that?
- ccm911 - 12-19-2008
emayer wrote:
Quote:Unless one has been in isolation for the past year(s), change is already occuring and will continue through and beyond Jan 20. No President can affect this alone as the issues here are on a global scale and go well beyond politics to the core values of our society.You are completely missing the point here. The change to which we refer is that this country has some nice momentum guiding us back to a "We the People" country. The fact is, the internet has allowed communications to explode, impacting every aspect of our lives. And I see it happening in a bunch of countries every day.
So you are right No President can affect the changes we seek. But " We the People" can.
So are you on the bus or are you off the bus?
- emayer - 12-19-2008
The fact that I and others here take part in this conversation offers some insight that we are certainly "on the bus" and care deeply about our country.
You say that we have momentum leaning toward a "We the People" country. Frankly, I'm deeply worried that we are in fact heading in the opposite direction toward increasing government control and ownership... This very thread about the Auto bailout speaks to this point. Our society increasingly expects government assistance from cradle to grave while permitting us a lifestyle that is perhaps beyond our means. One need look no further than the actions of the UAW in this crisis. This bus my friend is going to crash.
"We the People" need to step up and come to the realization that things will need to get quite a bit harder on all of us before this country is fully back on track. It is why many of us are against the concept of bailouts as this will likely prolong the agony and fails to address the root causes while simultaneosuly opening the door further for governmental control/ dependence. Shouldn't we all be deeply worried about this?
I truly hope Obama and his administration can help us get there but I'm concerned he'll be no different than all the rest. As an example, for Obama to say that he's going to tax some other rich guy or corporation minimizes the severity of the situation, and gives people the sense they're off the hook. In my view, aside from being a policy he no longer can implement, it shows a deficit in leadership. His proposal is not an inspirational stance for the country to toughen up and work collectively, rather it conveys the message that "Hey, the government has got you covered. We'll just get the needed funds from somewhere else."
Am I wrong in thinking this is the same storyline we've heard before?
- nplenzick - 12-20-2008
emayer wrote:
Quote:The fact that I and others here take part in this conversation offers some insight that we are certainly "on the bus" and care deeply about our country.
You say that we have momentum leaning toward a "We the People" country. Frankly, I'm deeply worried that we are in fact heading in the opposite direction toward increasing government control and ownership... This very thread about the Auto bailout speaks to this point. Our society increasingly expects government assistance from cradle to grave while permitting us a lifestyle that is perhaps beyond our means. One need look no further than the actions of the UAW in this crisis. This bus my friend is going to crash.
"We the People" need to step up and come to the realization that things will need to get quite a bit harder on all of us before this country is fully back on track. It is why many of us are against the concept of bailouts as this will likely prolong the agony and fails to address the root causes while simultaneosuly opening the door further for governmental control/ dependence. Shouldn't we all be deeply worried about this?
I truly hope Obama and his administration can help us get there but I'm concerned he'll be no different than all the rest. As an example, for Obama to say that he's going to tax some other rich guy or corporation minimizes the severity of the situation, and gives people the sense they're off the hook. In my view, aside from being a policy he no longer can implement, it shows a deficit in leadership. His proposal is not an inspirational stance for the country to toughen up and work collectively, rather it conveys the message that "Hey, the government has got you covered. We'll just get the needed funds from somewhere else."
Am I wrong in thinking this is the same storyline we've heard before?
Actually it's very perplexing as to where your coming from. It seams you still think the UAW is the main reason for the auto companies failure. I see absolutely zero problem with LOANING the auto companies money. Did you hear the words from the president yesterday about the conditions? Did you here the follow up from Obama? Or are you just hearing one minute sound bits? Did your parents live through the great depression? Mine did, believe me it's something you don't want to experience.
Maybe you can afford for things to get harder but for many people that would be a ridiculous idea. Fortunately the vast majority of economist feel different then you.
As I pointed out earlier pure capitalism is a figment of your imagination my friend. Our rivers , air, would be polluted beyond repair by now, our forests depleted, children still working in sweat shops, 80 hour work week, very few if any safety standard in our automobiles, and probably virtuly no middle class and maybe not even a USA if the government didn't get involved at some point in our history where we were going through a crisis.
What has Obama said that you disagree with? "This will not be easy and it will not happen overnight, but with hard work we will succeed". Maybe it's about how he wants parents to get more involved with their children or maybe it's about his concern about inflation that could very well follow when the economy rebounds. It can't be about tax's because if you'd would have been listening for the past few weeks he's not about to increase any taxes on anyone until he See's the economy begin to recovery.
Much of what you say about "cradle to grave" is dead wrong, oversimplified, and stereotyping. I've heard it all before about people who are doing well and criticizing people on welfare thinking they have it easy.
I can understand being skeptic there have been many administrations in my lifetime that left a lot to be desired. History shows every 50 to 100 years we get it right, Lincoln, TR, FDR, JFK, all forward thinkers, many of their policies have made us what we are today. You say you hope that Obama gets it right, but do you really? Or does at least 50% of you hope he's wrong? I for one hope not!
- emayer - 12-20-2008
nplenzick wrote:
Quote:emayer wrote:
Quote:The fact that I and others here take part in this conversation offers some insight that we are certainly "on the bus" and care deeply about our country.
You say that we have momentum leaning toward a "We the People" country. Frankly, I'm deeply worried that we are in fact heading in the opposite direction toward increasing government control and ownership... This very thread about the Auto bailout speaks to this point. Our society increasingly expects government assistance from cradle to grave while permitting us a lifestyle that is perhaps beyond our means. One need look no further than the actions of the UAW in this crisis. This bus my friend is going to crash.
"We the People" need to step up and come to the realization that things will need to get quite a bit harder on all of us before this country is fully back on track. It is why many of us are against the concept of bailouts as this will likely prolong the agony and fails to address the root causes while simultaneosuly opening the door further for governmental control/ dependence. Shouldn't we all be deeply worried about this?
I truly hope Obama and his administration can help us get there but I'm concerned he'll be no different than all the rest. As an example, for Obama to say that he's going to tax some other rich guy or corporation minimizes the severity of the situation, and gives people the sense they're off the hook. In my view, aside from being a policy he no longer can implement, it shows a deficit in leadership. His proposal is not an inspirational stance for the country to toughen up and work collectively, rather it conveys the message that "Hey, the government has got you covered. We'll just get the needed funds from somewhere else."
Am I wrong in thinking this is the same storyline we've heard before?
Quote:Actually it's very perplexing as to where your coming from. It seams you still think the UAW is the main reason for the auto companies failure. I see absolutely zero problem with LOANING the auto companies money. Did you hear the words from the president yesterday about the conditions? Did you here the follow up from Obama? Or are you just hearing one minute sound bits? Did your parents live through the great depression? Mine did, believe me it's something you don't want to experience.
Quote:I heard the President's words but the actions regarding prior bailout safeguards have not been implemented. Do you think this will be different? Have you not heard that the companies and UAW are awaiting Obama's administration in the hope of modifying the plan in their favor? If you've read my prior posts than you should know full well that the UAW is not the sole culprit here. Please do not try to convince me that they have contributed anything positive to resolving the situation however. As for my parents, unfortunately they had to live through far worse than the Great Depression. I'm lucky to have their values of hard work, discipline, and self-reliance instilled in me as a result. This is something many will have to learn...
Quote:Maybe you can afford for things to get harder but for many people that would be a ridiculous idea. Fortunately the vast majority of economist feel different then you.
Quote:Not true! Are these the same guys that failed to see the present economic situation evolving? Are we to again sacrifice our country's future for some short-term relief? None of us can afford for things to get harder, but I'd rather this now than passing the problem to future generations and further weakening our country. I am not alone in this belief!
As I pointed out earlier pure capitalism is a figment of your imagination my friend. Our rivers , air, would be polluted beyond repair by now, our forests depleted, children still working in sweat shops, 80 hour work week, very few if any safety standard in our automobiles, and probably virtuly no middle class and maybe not even a USA if the government didn't get involved at some point in our history where we were going through a crisis.
Quote:Great. So while we enjoy clean air we've forced industry to move elsewhere thereby weakening the economy and not impacting global pollution to any significant degree. My point with this statement is that the pendulum as swung to far...
What has Obama said that you disagree with? "This will not be easy and it will not happen overnight, but with hard work we will succeed". Maybe it's about how he wants parents to get more involved with their children or maybe it's about his concern about inflation that could very well follow when the economy rebounds. It can't be about tax's because if you'd would have been listening for the past few weeks he's not about to increase any taxes on anyone until he See's the economy begin to recovery.
Quote:Please put the Kool-aid down and back away from the table! Wasn't the notion of a tax "freeze" part of the other party's platform?
Much of what you say about "cradle to grave" is dead wrong, oversimplified, and stereotyping. I've heard it all before about people who are doing well and criticizing people on welfare thinking they have it easy.
Quote:I don't think anyone has it easy presently! Playing class warfare and pandering to those really struggling benefits no one.
I can understand being skeptic there have been many administrations in my lifetime that left a lot to be desired. History shows every 50 to 100 years we get it right, Lincoln, TR, FDR, JFK, all forward thinkers, many of their policies have made us what we are today. You say you hope the Obama gets it right, but do you really? Or does at least 50% of you hope he's wrong? I for one hope not!
Quote:I honestly hope Obama succeeds! It doesn't mean I can't question what we've seen so far. Rhetoric is one thing, leadership and the ability to make tough decisions is another. I think the jury is still out on this- obviuosly he hasn't taken office yet! Irrespective of your political leanings, I hope you'll objectively critque his performance in the future. It'll make for interesting commentary! Happy Holidays Everyone!Sorry for the severely highlighted text, I can't seem to remove this....
- nplenzick - 12-20-2008
I guess there's little to be said, apparently I hear different things coming from Obama's mouth then you. As I listen yesterday to what he said it was very clear he did not want the UAW to take ALL the blame but blame must be shared by ALL parties involved. Maybe you missed it.
If your parents who for whatever reason had a difficult time early in there life's would they want you to experience the same thing if it could be prevented?
May I remind you that the US worker is one of if not the most productive and hardest workers in the world.
Great. So while we enjoy clean air we've forced industry to move elsewhere thereby weakening the economy and not impacting global pollution to any significant degree. My point with this statement is that the pendulum as swung to far...
Your kidding right? You think we should sacrifice the air we breath, the water we drink? Would it not make better sense to negotiate with countries who we trade with so we start to uplift their environmental standards? The next time your coming down the Northeast Extension look to your left before you reach the tunnel and you'll see what our environmental standards did in the not so distant past. There's a reason there are no trees on those hills, or the next time on I-80 in the western part of the state where you can see first hand streams that run yellow from mine acid. Yea, that's what we should be leaving future generations!
Please put the Kool-aid down and back away from the table! Wasn't the notion of a tax "freeze" part of the other party's platform?
I don't like Kool-aid. Again if your were listening to what Obama has said, he's pointed out that everything would be on the table. After the election as the economy worsened and as he consulted with his advisers they decide that now would not be the time to increase taxes on anyone but to wait until the economy rebounds. He's also said time and time again ( you would know that if your listening) that these policies will remain fluid. If over a given amount of time their not working they'll try something else. I do remember quit clearly the other party's platform " Obama will rise 75% of everyone's taxes" .
As for Rhetoric you might be confusing that with hope. Hope my friend is what people need at the moment. A person who can offer hope, a person who will lead an inspire will take office a month from today. So don't take the bus with Chris and I, you'll be missing one hell of a good time!
I hope everyone has a great holiday and a Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!