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+--- Thread: Lessons from other regions/sponsors? (/showthread.php?tid=145)
- TwentySix - 11-08-2006
Howdy HH,
How many RTR events have you run in? What kind of cars do you track?
As far as trains in the upper run groups... it's rare to be held up more than one corner. Worst case is when two cars are running together and come upon a slower car in a series of turns where passing is not allowed.
- Brian Minkin - 11-08-2006
Hammerin Hank wrote:
Quote:I agree on the initial screening part. It's a good policy.
And if the car you took to Mid-Ohio was a stock 356?..... I think they would have viewed things differently. I guarentee you your car mattered to be able to run in the faster groups with the Ohio region. Your overall quickness mattered in the "check out ride" with the instructor, which included your car in the equation. They may not have made that a formal issue, but I'm sure the person would have viewed your placement differently if cars were blowing by you left and right. I could be wrong, though.
Hank,
I advanced through the ranks in a worn out 3.2 Carrera Targa that could not pass a leak down test. Probably had less power then a NA 944. And when I first built my current car that is the engine that went into it. I ran out of region with that and still was signed off to solo in the upper groups. Anyone can push a high hp car fast down the straights. This does not mean you have the appropriate skills in the corners to run with the faster run group. Perhaps you do, I have not observed your driving, but if you have the skills then it is not a matter of what car you are driving but rather that you have the appropriate skills for that group. I have instructed students in 400 HP cars and they belonged right where they where, in the instructed run groups because they had not developed the skills needed to advance to solo. Overly agressive with poor track awarness and minimal car control. Where they fast, yes. Did lower Hp cars hold them back for a few corners, yes but that is what DE is. Its not racing where you find the first opportunity to get around someone. Would they be safe as a solo driver in an advanced run group. NO!
- Hammerin Hank - 11-08-2006
Quote:HH,
If you have the skills you would quickly be evaluated and placed in the appropriate group within RTR. RTR does not run like Schattenbaum. I have driven with Schattenbaum on many occasions and they view safety much differently than RTR. As you stated, you chose you own group...not safe. Schattenbaum has never asked to see my driver's license or PCA card. The tech line has never checked my brake pads or torqued a lug. (I check my car thoroughly each morning and quick check during the day) That is just not the way RTR runs a DE. I hope you are not suggesting that the Schattenbaum way is better.
You're correct, Schattenbaum runs things differently than RTR. As do most other organizations that do DE's. Schattenbaum takes a more trusting approach. They also put more responsibilty on the drivers to make sure things are "safe" prior to firing up. I'm not so sure that's such a bad thing. People should learn to double check there own lugs and become more familar with their cars.
I agree on the a little too loose part with the inital first event stuff. They should have at least a "check out ride" as Brian mentioned to verify the participant isn't a risk.
Better? I dunno. Depends on how you look at it. Less safe? I dunno, maybe. I see the ride to the track as the most dangerous part of all DE's, so it's all relative.
Quote:How many DE's have you done with RTR?
How many DE's have you done with Potomac PCA?
How many DE's have you done with Zone 2 PCA, Zone 1 PCA, Northern New Jersey, Metro NY?
I assure you that Schattenbaum is the exception and not the rule within PCA. They are all good people but they represent a small region in terms of members. This leads to events being filled with a large percentage on non-Schattenbaum members. These out of region folks are needed to fund the event. It is just not possible for them to know everyone's skill and car in the event. Therefore, they do things a little looser.
FATT is a different event with different goals. I've driven at FATT and they started one day before the ambulance arrived....not safe.
SCCA is racing. DE is not racing.
I've specatated/crewed a few RTR events and have a pretty good feel for what the deal is.
None of the other chapters you've mentioned.
Ya, Schattenbaum...they gotta eat, right?
FATT days not safe? Your ambulance example isn't the norm. There's been one there everytime I've been there. As a matter of fact I think BSR owns their own. Could be wrong. Like I said, the ride to the track is "not safe" either. If you want to be safe, take up knitting. Oh wait that's not safe either. Needles.
![[Image: 4_6_2v.gif]](http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_2v.gif)
SCCA thinks they're racing, it's actually bumpercars only you get to wear a helmet, unlike when we were kids. I think I eluded to DE not being racing in one of my long winded posts. It's so true.
Quote:While we would love to have you participate in one our our events, there is no free pass. You would be evaluated by an RTR instructor and placed into an appropriate group according to your skill..................and of course you car. While this may inhibit someone with your honed skills, it allows time for a few instructors to evaluated someone and continue running safe events.
Hope to see you at the track. Stop by Summit this w/e and say YO! Car #19.
I'm not expecting a free pass. Nor I'm I sure I'll be running with RTR next year. You will more than likely see me in a support role for the #8 car, however. Hey, someone has to tighten her lugs.
Negative on this coming weekend. Other stuff to do. Thanks, just the same. 
- Hammerin Hank - 11-08-2006
Brian Minkin wrote:
Quote:Hammerin Hank wrote:Quote:I agree on the initial screening part. It's a good policy.
And if the car you took to Mid-Ohio was a stock 356?..... I think they would have viewed things differently. I guarentee you your car mattered to be able to run in the faster groups with the Ohio region. Your overall quickness mattered in the "check out ride" with the instructor, which included your car in the equation. They may not have made that a formal issue, but I'm sure the person would have viewed your placement differently if cars were blowing by you left and right. I could be wrong, though.
Hank,
I advanced through the ranks in a worn out 3.2 Carrera Targa that could not pass a leak down test. Probably had less power then a NA 944. And when I first built my current car that is the engine that went into it. I ran out of region with that and still was signed off to solo in the upper groups. Anyone can push a high hp car fast down the straights. This does not mean you have the appropriate skills in the corners to run with the faster run group. Perhaps you do, I have not observed your driving, but if you have the skills then it is not a matter of what car you are driving but rather that you have the appropriate skills for that group. I have instructed students in 400 HP cars and they belonged right where they where, in the instructed run groups because they had not developed the skills needed to advance to solo. Overly agressive with poor track awarness and minimal car control. Where they fast, yes. Did lower Hp cars hold them back for a few corners, yes but that is what DE is. Its not racing where you find the first opportunity to get around someone. Would they be safe as a solo driver in an advanced run group. NO!
All of my ramblings pertain to after the solo status is given. I agree, participants need to be instructed until they're ready to solo. Some may never be ready, regardless of what they drive. Some may be ready the first day they show up. But that's not the part I find odd.
What I find odd is that a person can solo in one group but not in another. Why would you trust someone to solo in a "riskier" group (i.e. blue) but not in a less risky group (i.e. white or black)? By risk, I'm referring to driver experience level of the group, which is what the RTR groups are based on. To me, the only risk variable should be relative speed, at that point, since everybody should know how to control their car, the rules, the track, awareness, pushing the limits of their car...yada yada. If they don't know that stuff, they have no business in a solo situation. Perhaps the criteria for "ready to solo" is were RTR differs from what I'm used to?
- bobt993 - 11-09-2006
Hank,
I was under the impression you have run with RTR and had a bad experience. It appears this is not the case. I would suggest attending an event as a participant, then revisting this thread as you have made statements that become contrary to your experience within the group (and maybe not). The formulation of your initial thread is "argumentative" as I stated and there is nothing wrong with that. If you feel it is "fact" then this back and forth bantering is a waste of computer space. Really interesting to get an external point of view on the RTR DE program even if I dissagreee with the comments.
As far as Club Racing, if you have a driver log and your prior license a provisional license can be obtained with Rookie status. If 944 spec is too slow, try GTC1,2 or GTR. Winning FTD at the Glen this year was 1:52 full course. I think that would be fast enough considering mid pack on Rolex runs closer to 2mins. Comparison with pro racing series is more than reasonable. We have plenty of pro drivers show up to DE events and club races. Really too many as it makes club racing podiums even harder.
Like I said. Come out try an event. If submit a log book to the registrar ahead of time, you may be surprised what can be accomplished through proper channels.
- Phokaioglaukos - 11-09-2006
Interesting sidebar, guys, even if there was a bit of defensiveness at times.
Let's get back on topic, though. For starters, do we all want to encourage Mike to remove the cones after Friday this weekend at SP?
- bobt993 - 11-09-2006
Chris,
If we remove the cones, Emrich will be forced to drive on the grass to hit sh****t.
- Phokaioglaukos - 11-09-2006
So, Bob, that'd be a "yes, remove the cones"? Maybe Brian will share the groundhog attractant.
- bobt993 - 11-09-2006
Actually a "no". I like the cones for green students/ first timers. It really helps them understand where to be on the track. Think about it, the engineering marks on the track are small to the normal driver let alone a first timer. I use larger references so I know they see them. By end of second day, we develope new references. Ignore the cones unless one is "on line" and about to hit your spoiler. Off to work, then load the trailer, see you down, still interested in driving your beast....
- Brian Minkin - 11-09-2006
Hammerin Hank wrote:
Quote:All of my ramblings pertain to after the solo status is given. I agree, participants need to be instructed until they're ready to solo. Some may never be ready, regardless of what they drive. Some may be ready the first day they show up. But that's not the part I find odd.Hank,
What I find odd is that a person can solo in one group but not in another. Why would you trust someone to solo in a "riskier" group (i.e. blue) but not in a less risky group (i.e. white or black)? By risk, I'm referring to driver experience level of the group, which is what the RTR groups are based on. To me, the only risk variable should be relative speed, at that point, since everybody should know how to control their car, the rules, the track, awareness, pushing the limits of their car...yada yada. If they don't know that stuff, they have no business in a solo situation. Perhaps the criteria for "ready to solo" is were RTR differs from what I'm used to?
My opnion is that the higher a run group you are in the riskier it is. Solo in blue is slow compared to driving in white. Each group gets faster and some drivers may be encouraged to drive beyond their skill level by moving up before they are ready. And I might add that I find the speed in RTR's most advanced run groups, black and red is faster then any other region I have run with.