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+--- Thread: Potomac PCA at Summit Point 7/14-15 open NOW (/showthread.php?tid=557)
- Phokaioglaukos - 07-16-2007
Here are some more data points. The spinner starts to raise some dust at 0:00, the dust cloud is big enough that I think I notice it at about 0:01, my data logger tells me that I was at about 72 mph at that point. I remember thinking that someone is off up ahead and I start backing out of the throttle. By 0:03 my speed is 50 mph, at 0:04 its 40 mph and the car in front of me enters the cloud, at 0:05 my speed is 22 mph in complete brownout, at 0:06 I see the spinner and swerve hard to the left at 17 mph. It happened very quickly. I did not check my mirrors when I first noticed the dust (and I should have), but I believe no one was close behind me in that stretch as the GT3 in front of me and I were moving through the field well. There is not a lot of philosophy going on in those six seconds. That comes now.
- Tony356993 - 07-16-2007
Quote:However, after watching videos where someone drops a wheel and puts up dirt (Todd Reid comes to mind), unless you've seen the car spin, you really can't stop every time.That was too much dust for just a wheel being dropped off.
- JIMK - 07-16-2007
Okay There was an added bonus from the safety briefing that was held for the blue group from Potomac, other than learning everyone in my run group has had multiple off on virtually every corner. "Escape routes".
I thought this was a nice briefing for a course I've never walked to really look around. We all know about the road to the skid pad @ t1. What I didn't know was what is the "off track" like if T2 track out puts two wheels off; apparently, it isn't too bumpy and there is plenty of space to "keep it straight & slow down." It was also reported that "There is enough gravel in the gravel trap to the right of the skid pad access to keep you out of the wall & trees.
The safety instructor went turn by turn trying to identify the various places that one could use around the track if circumstances put you in grass or gravel versus on the track itself.
That may be one reason Potomac use so much real estate.
See, I now know that turn 9 is a perfect place to drive with 2-wheels in the dirt & 2 on track or even 4 off left and get the car slowed and under control without much risk to me, my equipment or others on the track. Where-as trying to get back on the black stuff can really present a hazard to all around.
I wasn't in that car, so I don't know exactly what happened but the video Chris posted kinda shows that that driver hadn't paid attention to this type of briefing if that opportunity was presented.
Conversely, at the glen for instance, there are turns with nowhere to go but into the arms of the blue bushes.
Anyway, I liked the "escape route" talk it might be a benchmark item to steal and incorporate in RTR.
- Tony356993 - 07-16-2007
Quote:escape route
I like it.
- bobt993 - 07-16-2007
Aaron, DAys of Thunder is hollywood at its best. The idea to of heading towards the spinning car only has merit on a banked high speed course. Cars locked up tend to spin down, but if they exceeded grip, they first head for the upper wall hard.
I think Chris handled the incident pretty well. A car should never go off between T8-T9 unless: Mechanical failure; Slippery substance on the track. Rule number one in the carousel: " Do not try and turn the car if the wheel (balance) does not feel neutral." Take a late apex or just slow down. If driven correctly you will balance the car from turn to turn and carry much more speed. BTW 2 wheels off in T9 is a bad idea. Yes, you can continue going straight slowing the car, but the terrain is rough and the wall is very close. You also have cars coming out of there better than 100mph so coming on the track can be tricky. I have been passenger in a car doing this and it ain't funnnn.
hock:- Tony356993 - 07-16-2007
Quote:There is not a lot of philosophy going on in those six seconds. That comes now.I think you did a great job and I was not in any way being critical. I'm just trying to learn from your experience. I agree with Bob, you did a good job in a tense situation. I'm just thinking (esp @ Summit with bad corner workers) what would be best.
I'm sure each situation requires separate analysis calculating all of the circumstances.
It gives us all a situation to think about should we ever find ourselves in this predicament.
- Phokaioglaukos - 07-16-2007
No offense taken, Tony! On reflection, I did what I usually do when I see an off ahead--slow and look for the issue. Every time before the car that went off was visible, either off the track or moving across the track in front of me, and I was able to steer around it at reduced speed. This time the fellow must have spun off the track, raising a cloud of dust, and then continued back on to the track. That is a new one for me. I went left mostly because I was fixated on the car in front, I would guess, and I was suprised that the dust was as thick as it was. Never seen brownout like that before, either. Happily I was slow enough when the spinner loomed out of the dust that I could swerve sharply more to the left to avoid him. You really cannot see that in the video as there are no points of reference, but even at that speed I managed a ¼G swerve. Rather a panic move, and I hit the wiper switch while doing it (although I'm telling people from now on that I was trying to clear the windshield of dust).
I posted the video in the hope that we can collectively learn more what to do, and what not to do, bearing in mind that there is still a lot of luck in happy results. I know I was lucky.
- Darren - 07-16-2007
smankow wrote:
Quote:Tony, I agree that this is something that needs to be addressed. However, after watching videos where someone drops a wheel and puts up dirt (Todd Reid comes to mind), unless you've seen the car spin, you really can't stop every time.
It helps to know what cars are in front of you. If it was Todd hitting dirt in T9 I'm sure that by the time anyone got there there would be a dust cloud and no car. I wouldn't even lift if it was Todd. This incident seemed like an unusual way to go off -- doesn't it look like he hit the dirt on the inside of T9 before the apex?? Odd. I'd expect the only way to mess up the turn is early apexing, but obviously not.
It's hard to teach situational awareness, what might help is teaching people where cars are likely to end up in different types of off's. Obviously keeping cool is huge, as Chris did. Perhaps a "well that probably isn't good" instead of "HOLY CRAP!!" It's very unusual that I'll go off, but if I do I'm thinking about where I'm going to end up as soon as I make the mistake. Same idea when someone starts to spin in front of me.
I don't like how the car in front came off of his brakes, he couldn't see, was still going too fast, and made himself invisible.
In this case I'd like to think that I'd see the dirt on the inside and realize that something unsual has happened. I wouldn't be happy driving thru that cloud, and I think I would have slowed way way way down. If the dirt was on the outside, I'd be staying all the way track left and slowing down as much as possible.
- JIMK - 07-16-2007
bobt993 wrote:
Quote: BTW 2 wheels off in T9 is a bad idea. Yes, you can continue going straight slowing the car, but the terrain is rough and the wall is very close. You also have cars coming out of there better than 100mph so coming on the track can be tricky. I have been passenger in a car doing this and it ain't funnnn.
Bob, your are 100% correct. That was why I was happy to be able to NOT RAISE MY HAND during the whole "Who has been off here?" period of the blue safety session.
I may never be the fastest in my run group. I try not to be driving at 10 - 9 - 8/10's of my ability. I am not the driver caliber I want to be. I'm a student learning and this is DE. Also, I like to drive my car home.
I know spins & offs are not just over-driving. I am hopeful that I am saving tenths 8, 9 & 10 to react safely to the situations that occur around me. So far I have had that blessing when other cars were doing things their driver hadn't intended. I am also hopeful that I don't have to find out if I have those tenths to give in an even MORE dramatic situation than those I have seen on-track, but I am a participant and that is the point of my weekends, learning.
Chris, I know I said I was "glad your guardian angel was with you" - but I'm also glad you had your seat time too. Five seconds is not a lot of time to decide which way am I loaded, which way will I go if I am 2 feet in, what is MY escape route (and who else will be trying to use that route. I'd hope that I would know who is behind me & how close, were they closing on me or was I separating.
Thanks for helping my learning experience.
- catchacab - 07-16-2007
I wonder what Larry H. has to say about this?