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+--- Thread: Der Gasser- Letter to Editor (/showthread.php?tid=1868)
- dmano - 09-11-2009
Thants perfect now put me back in the white run group
- George3 - 09-11-2009
dmano wrote:
Quote:Thants perfect now put me back in the white run group
C'mon down and join the "fun"
- ninjabones - 09-12-2009
From my conversations with many students, solo drivers, and instructors, a few common themes have emerged. Granted, there will likely be vocal opposition no matter what is done. However, I believe the club must make a few changes to keep up with changing conditions in the club, in the economy, and with regard to emerging competition.
1. We must absolutely positively ensure that the club maintains a competent, enthusiastic, and satisfied cadre of instructors. This is the foundation upon which the entire DE system rests. Competition from other venues mandates that we keep pace. As such, we must compensate (in some form) our instructors at a level that is comparable to other clubs. We must also ensure that instructors are given ample time to rest, provide feedback to their students, and have time to prepare their cars between runs. I also wouldn't object to instructors being given extra time on track (either extended run sessions or an additional run session during the day).
2. Consensus seems to be that instructors should have some type of financial commitment to ensure attendance. Consequently, instructors should pay full entry fees at the time of on-line registration. All discounts would be applied in the form of credit toward future events or cash refunds at the completion of the DE weekend. The same cancellation policies should apply to instructors as for students and solo drivers.
3. Discount formula. One-half price for instructors with one student, and free-registration for instructors with two students seems to be a reasonable solution from the feedback I have received. This cost would be offset by proportional increased registration costs for instructed drivers. Based on our current registration costs, this would appear to be about an additional $75 per student per driving day. Given the expenses related to a typical DE weekend (tech inspection, tires, brakes, gas, transportation, lodging, wear&tear on the vehicle, etc), I do not believe that this additional cost will decrease participation in our instructed groups.
4. Tech inspection. I have participated in events with BMWCCA, PCA, SCCA, and NASA. I've also been on our RTR tech crew for the past two years. It is clear that our tech inspection process is by far the most entailed, meticulous, organized and yes perhaps the most annoying. This is a dangerous sport. There are many things over which we have no control; therefore, we must make every effort to ensure that we minimize risk with regard to the things over which we do have control, namely, the condition and safety of our own cars. Any change in our current practices must be made with careful consideration of possible consequences. I do believe that there are many individuals in our club who are more than qualified to tech their own cars. However, I do not necessarily believe that being a fantastic driver or driving instructor necessarily equates to having the requisite skills to inspect a race car. Perhaps "tech inspection" status should be granted only to those individuals (regardless of run group or instructor status) who can demonstrate appropriate understanding and experience. There are club members with far more experience than I, who can determine what those requirements should be.
5. Event organizers, volunteers and executive committee discounts. One group that was not mentioned in this thread is, in my mind, the most important. These guys bust their butts all year long to make sure we have enjoyable, fun and well-organized events. They too should be adequately compensated for their efforts. I, for one, believe that the key organizers of each DE weekend should not have to pay registration fees (or given credit toward future events if not driving). This would include chief instructor, safety/tech chair, registrar, and track chair (1/2 price for those sharing/splitting duties). Perhaps a proportional discount should be given to exec board members based on their actual workload. I do not necessarily agree with the discounting policy that is now being submitted by our exec committee whereby all exec committee members (or their cohabitant designees) recieve the same discount.
I do not want my comments above to appear as criticism of our current speed council or executive committee. I truly appreciate the incredible efforts that have been made to make this season so enjoyable for me and so many of our club members. I applaud all of you for accepting the challenge of these tough economic times and adapting to the changing motorsport climate in our region.
- larrybard - 09-12-2009
ninjabones wrote:
Quote:3. Discount formula. One-half price for instructors with one student, and free-registration for instructors with two students seems to be a reasonable solution from the feedback I have received. This cost would be offset by proportional increased registration costs for instructed drivers. Based on our current registration costs, this would appear to be about an additional $75 per student per driving day. Given the expenses related to a typical DE weekend (tech inspection, tires, brakes, gas, transportation, lodging, wear&tear on the vehicle, etc), I do not believe that this additional cost will decrease participation in our instructed groups.
Glen, all good suggestions, I think. As for the discount, I completely agree in principle, and as I previously stated in this thread I personally would be quite willing to pay more (e.g., $75 per day), but I nevertheless wonder whether other green/blue students have the same view/price inelasticity. Was there a survey within the last year that touched on this? But maybe not specifically enough.
Larry
- Mike Andrews - 09-12-2009
ninjabones wrote:
Quote:From my conversations with many students, solo drivers, and instructors, a few common themes have emerged. Granted, there will likely be vocal opposition no matter what is done. However, I believe the club must make a few changes to keep up with changing conditions in the club, in the economy, and with regard to emerging competition.
1. We must absolutely positively ensure that the club maintains a competent, enthusiastic, and satisfied cadre of instructors. This is the foundation upon which the entire DE system rests. Competition from other venues mandates that we keep pace. As such, we must compensate (in some form) our instructors at a level that is comparable to other clubs. We must also ensure that instructors are given ample time to rest, provide feedback to their students, and have time to prepare their cars between runs. I also wouldn't object to instructors being given extra time on track (either extended run sessions or an additional run session during the day).
2. Consensus seems to be that instructors should have some type of financial commitment to ensure attendance. Consequently, instructors should pay full entry fees at the time of on-line registration. All discounts would be applied in the form of credit toward future events or cash refunds at the completion of the DE weekend. The same cancellation policies should apply to instructors as for students and solo drivers.
3. Discount formula. One-half price for instructors with one student, and free-registration for instructors with two students seems to be a reasonable solution from the feedback I have received. This cost would be offset by proportional increased registration costs for instructed drivers. Based on our current registration costs, this would appear to be about an additional $75 per student per driving day. Given the expenses related to a typical DE weekend (tech inspection, tires, brakes, gas, transportation, lodging, wear&tear on the vehicle, etc), I do not believe that this additional cost will decrease participation in our instructed groups.
4. Tech inspection. I have participated in events with BMWCCA, PCA, SCCA, and NASA. I've also been on our RTR tech crew for the past two years. It is clear that our tech inspection process is by far the most entailed, meticulous, organized and yes perhaps the most annoying. This is a dangerous sport. There are many things over which we have no control; therefore, we must make every effort to ensure that we minimize risk with regard to the things over which we do have control, namely, the condition and safety of our own cars. Any change in our current practices must be made with careful consideration of possible consequences. I do believe that there are many individuals in our club who are more than qualified to tech their own cars. However, I do not necessarily believe that being a fantastic driver or driving instructor necessarily equates to having the requisite skills to inspect a race car. Perhaps "tech inspection" status should be granted only to those individuals (regardless of run group or instructor status) who can demonstrate appropriate understanding and experience. There are club members with far more experience than I, who can determine what those requirements should be.
5. Event organizers, volunteers and executive committee discounts. One group that was not mentioned in this thread is, in my mind, the most important. These guys bust their butts all year long to make sure we have enjoyable, fun and well-organized events. They too should be adequately compensated for their efforts. I, for one, believe that the key organizers of each DE weekend should not have to pay registration fees (or given credit toward future events if not driving). This would include chief instructor, safety/tech chair, registrar, and track chair (1/2 price for those sharing/splitting duties). Perhaps a proportional discount should be given to exec board members based on their actual workload. I do not necessarily agree with the discounting policy that is now being submitted by our exec committee whereby all exec committee members (or their cohabitant designees) recieve the same discount.
I do not want my comments above to appear as criticism of our current speed council or executive committee. I truly appreciate the incredible efforts that have been made to make this season so enjoyable for me and so many of our club members. I applaud all of you for accepting the challenge of these tough economic times and adapting to the changing motorsport climate in our region.
Glen,
Allow me to comment. But first, thanks for taking the time to put this writting as a suggestion.
1) We agree, it comes up in conversation all the time. If we were able to go back to the 1 to 1 student - instructor ratio with the current 50 percent discount, would you think that to be a reasonable discount? FWIW, we do give instructors additional time on track, either by extending their run group ot them going out in the black or white run groups. And then I think when it's one to one the time between students and their run group is no longer an issue.
2) I understand what you are saying... but taking money form one event and then giving credit at another kinda hides the profit/lose for the events. I guess (OK, I know) it could be tracked so that the credits for a future event went back to the original event but that's a lot more work than just charging half up front. Let's set this one asside for a few and see what shakes out.
3) If we got back to one to one this wouldn't be an issue. But as you said in item two, if we charged everyone up front and gave discounts when they showed up that might work. I think Potomac did something like this in the past.... perhaps we should talk with them to see how that worked for them and if they are no longer do it that way, why they stopped.
4) I'm with you on that one.
5) You do not have an accurate understanding of the discount policy. But it appears that the policy has been misunderstood by a few others as well. It should be the elected exec members run at the instructor rate. This will be discussed at the exec meeting tomorrow and clarified for all involved.
larrybard wrote:
Quote:ninjabones wrote:Quote:3. Discount formula. One-half price for instructors with one student, and free-registration for instructors with two students seems to be a reasonable solution from the feedback I have received. This cost would be offset by proportional increased registration costs for instructed drivers. Based on our current registration costs, this would appear to be about an additional $75 per student per driving day. Given the expenses related to a typical DE weekend (tech inspection, tires, brakes, gas, transportation, lodging, wear&tear on the vehicle, etc), I do not believe that this additional cost will decrease participation in our instructed groups.
Glen, all good suggestions, I think. As for the discount, I completely agree in principle, and as I previously stated in this thread I personally would be quite willing to pay more (e.g., $75 per day), but I nevertheless wonder whether other green/blue students have the same view/price inelasticity. Was there a survey within the last year that touched on this? But maybe not specifically enough.
Larry
Perhaps it's time ask more questions.... are you willing to put together the correct questions for the drivers?
.................................
I'm not taking anything away from your comments and or statements but I would like to point out that even when we had advanced days (which means no students) we had a hard time filling the event. So, I think it more than just the issues mentioned above. I'm not discounting your statements... let's go with them and see where they lead us.
So, I'll take the action item to talk to Potomac to see what they have to say with regards to instructrs and discounts. I'll also take the action to meet, in person or via email or phone, with you guys (or anyone else) to see if we can put something together to propose to Myles for the budget in 2010.
Hows that sound.
- larrybard - 09-12-2009
Mike Andrews wrote:
Quote:Perhaps it's time ask more questions.... are you willing to put together the correct questions for the drivers?
Mike,
I'm not sure if that was directed at me, because of my speculation as to whether green and blue participants might pay, for example, $75 (or whatever) more per day for DE.
One quick and dirty way of attempting to get a sense of the answer -- though of course I can't vouch for the reliability of the results -- is for someone to stand at the tech line at Pocono and ask each green and blue student whether they would have attended even if the three day fee had been (a) $50 (b) $100 or © $150 more.
Just a thought.
Larry
- Darren - 09-12-2009
Mike Andrews wrote:
Quote:4) I'm with you on that one.
It's easy to always ask for "more" safety but the question is really how much is enough? And that is a tough question to answer.
When we were kids we played Matchbox cars on the back package shelf in our parents cars, no seat belts, and that was normal. Now if you see a parent doing that "Oh my God you must be the worst parent ever!"
In Germany on Hockenheimring for open track day we took helmets. The Germans pointed and laughed at us!
"Safety" is a perception thing, its not a real thing you can poke with a stick. You can't mandate safety you can only mandate safety procedures and safety equipment. The reality is that we (many of us) actually race in self-inspected cars. Not driving around for fun, we race like that. Also any other group besides PCA we can self inspect at usually any level. Are there cars falling apart and crashing at these events? NO.
The whole safety inspection idea is a farce because as soon as the inspection is over the owner can do things to invalidate the inspection. Are the inspectors guaranteeing the safety of things that happen after they inspect the car? Hell no.
So great mandate your $85 inspections all you want, its a waste of money and does very little in increase safety.
- Darren - 09-12-2009
Mike Andrews wrote:
Quote:5) You do not have an accurate understanding of the discount policy. But it appears that the policy has been misunderstood by a few others as well. It should be the elected exec members run at the instructor rate. This will be discussed at the exec meeting tomorrow and clarified for all involved.Frankly, as long as the execs are following a documented and communicated policy, I could care less. If the execs get free registration, I could care less! Just tell me that!!!! The expenses of the execs need to be public, that is obvious. The "secret society" stuff is nonsense and needs to stop.
There has been much speculation on this recently and the focus going forward needs to be transparency, as Graham, Chris, and the rest of the execs have been pushing for.
- ninjabones - 09-12-2009
Darren:
I think you misunderstood the upshot of my statement. Essentially, I do believe that qualified individuals should be allowed to self-inspect. I do not necessarily believe, though, that this qualification is directly tied to one's driving skills. You clearly have the mechanical aptitude and experience to tech your own car. There are certainly many others in the club with the experience and aptitude to do this as well. I, too, feel at this point that I can appropriately tech my own car. However, I do not necessarily feel that we should summarily allow any and all participants to tech their own cars. In my opinion (and this is just one voice), we should set forth some form of qualification/certification process that is reasonable and hopefully acceptable to any requirements set forth by PCA national and with regard to liability.
- George3 - 09-12-2009
I do not think he misunderstood anything. You should re-read his statements and comments and come to your own conclusions. Perhaps we are not all on the same page.