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+--- Thread: Der Gasser- Letter to Editor (/showthread.php?tid=1868)
- Darren - 09-12-2009
Yeah I don't know the right answer either, I didn't mean to imply as much.
When I take my Acura race car to a PCA inspector they look at it and say "ummm". They don't know the car and they don't know where to start. I've had guys open my fuel door and say "your fuel cap is missing". Yeah, it has a fuel cell, the fuel flap is not used.
I'm realizing more and more I'm the exception, along with other racers. For a race oriented club like NASA self inspection makes a lot of sense. I don't know what makes sense for PCA DE. Maybe I should stop complaining, just do NASA events and y'all can work it out yourselves.
NASA has instructors inspect the cars and I really like that. I've refused to ride in a few cars. I also once found seat bolts missing in a white run group RTR car when we did a white blitz.
Also, I've found many many harness installations that are totally incorrect in cars I've instructed in for PCA. This includes things like the 6-point belt going around the front of the seat.
- ninjabones - 09-12-2009
George3 wrote:
Quote:George
I do not think he misunderstood anything. You should re-read his statements and comments and come to your own conclusions. Perhaps we are not all on the same page.
Discourse is important. I am only expressing my personal opinion. You've been around the block with several other clubs... what's your opinion on this subject?
- emayer - 09-13-2009
+1 to Glen's earlier statements regarding DE.
Tech inspection may be a harder item to deal with as there may also be national/ regional PCA requirements in regards to this. One thing I have seen repeatedly from other clubs is that tech is done only one time upon arrival to the event rather than daily.
Of all the proposals, discounting fees for instructors seems most feasible. While a survey of green/blue groups may be in order regarding pricing, I think with high overall demand and the fact that our rates are if anything below average, there is room here for an increase. Larry, for the impromptu survey I'm good for $100-150.... The use of dedicated advanced days may need to be revisited until economic conditions improve.
I'm taking the liberty of saying this on behalf of all thread participants, but the speed council and exec committees have been doing an excellent job in these times. Many of the items may have been considered, our goal here is just to further the discussion in the hopes of allaying some of the financial issues and to ensure that quality instructors remain interested in the group.
Mike, if it is of any help, you can count me in for a discussion of these proposals at any time.
- Mike Andrews - 09-13-2009
larrybard wrote:
Quote:Mike Andrews wrote:Quote:Perhaps it's time ask more questions.... are you willing to put together the correct questions for the drivers?
Mike,
I'm not sure if that was directed at me, because of my speculation as to whether green and blue participants might pay, for example, $75 (or whatever) more per day for DE.
One quick and dirty way of attempting to get a sense of the answer -- though of course I can't vouch for the reliability of the results -- is for someone to stand at the tech line at Pocono and ask each green and blue student whether they would have attended even if the three day fee had been (a) $50 (b) $100 or © $150 more.
Just a thought.
Larry
Larry,
Yes it was directed at you.
It's even easier than that (than standing in line). We have email addresses for all involved. Once a set of questions is formulated we can simply mail them to the participants.
- Mike Andrews - 09-13-2009
Darren wrote:
Quote:Mike Andrews wrote:Quote:5) You do not have an accurate understanding of the discount policy. But it appears that the policy has been misunderstood by a few others as well. It should be the elected exec members run at the instructor rate. This will be discussed at the exec meeting tomorrow and clarified for all involved.Frankly, as long as the execs are following a documented and communicated policy, I could care less. If the execs get free registration, I could care less! Just tell me that!!!! The expenses of the execs need to be public, that is obvious. The "secret society" stuff is nonsense and needs to stop.
There has been much speculation on this recently and the focus going forward needs to be transparency, as Graham, Chris, and the rest of the execs have been pushing for.
Darren,
Who says the expenses of the exec aren't public. Again, what's this "secret society" stuff. How's this.... ask me any question (s) you want (related to the club) and I'll answer it.
I don't know what this transparency thing you say Graham, Chris and the rest have been pushing for is... Certainly as the president of the club Graham haas access to the books to see what expenses are paid and he certainly has the right, and responsibilty, to ask if he has issues or questions with procedures.
The only questions I've heard are from Chris as he's working toward a written policy for the club.
- Mike Andrews - 09-13-2009
Darren wrote:
Quote:Mike Andrews wrote:Quote:4) I'm with you on that one.
It's easy to always ask for "more" safety but the question is really how much is enough? And that is a tough question to answer.
When we were kids we played Matchbox cars on the back package shelf in our parents cars, no seat belts, and that was normal. Now if you see a parent doing that "Oh my God you must be the worst parent ever!"
In Germany on Hockenheimring for open track day we took helmets. The Germans pointed and laughed at us!
"Safety" is a perception thing, its not a real thing you can poke with a stick. You can't mandate safety you can only mandate safety procedures and safety equipment. The reality is that we (many of us) actually race in self-inspected cars. Not driving around for fun, we race like that. Also any other group besides PCA we can self inspect at usually any level. Are there cars falling apart and crashing at these events? NO.
The whole safety inspection idea is a farce because as soon as the inspection is over the owner can do things to invalidate the inspection. Are the inspectors guaranteeing the safety of things that happen after they inspect the car? Hell no.
So great mandate your $85 inspections all you want, its a waste of money and does very little in increase safety.
Darren,
Yeah, I rode up there as well.
You state that in many other organizations you can self tech your car and that only at PCA events are you required to do that extra step. Well, perhaps we are right and they are wrong. And yes, there are cars falling about at those events. And there are cars falling apart at our events as well. But having a tech before the event allows another set of eyes on a car and that does catch issues. That is a fact and that's why we do this.
Could you self tech your car? I don't know that, but by setting a policy (in the reply above you were all for a policy) allows us better control of the condition of the cars out on track. Part of the responsibility of the track program is to put on as safe an event as possible (within reason).
You may think it’s a farce, but there are people that believe otherwise. You are correct, inspectors aren’t guarantying anything other than at the time they looked at the car they saw no obvious issues. Just the same as you looking over your car and saying it was ready. Again, they are there ot put another set of eyes on the car and look for potential issues. We understand that parts fail and that there is nothing we can do about that. We also understand that people can take there car away from the tech session and do whatever they want with it from then to the time of the event. We can’t control that end of the equation.
Perhaps your issue is not with the inspection process but with the $85 you keep mentioning. Perhaps you should address that issue with whoever is doing your tech inspection.
We are not trying to pick on anyone and we would love to make this as cheap and painless as possible…. But in the past there have been many situation of cars brought to the track that weren’t (in our eyes) safe. Our responsibly is to all the other people out on the track.
- Mike Andrews - 09-13-2009
Ok, I made back to back replies to Darren.... and I want to make sure he understands that I'm not singling him out.
Earlier on someone said the exec, or was it speed council, was quiet and not answering questions. As I offered earlier, if you have a question just ask it. Be specific.
- Darren - 09-13-2009
Thanks for the reply Mike, I don't care if you are singling me out. I'm being vocal (can typing be vocal?) because I care and I'm frustrated. The easier thing to do is to walk away.
Going forward I'd like to see a public method of communicating executive expenses, including what is paid for event registrations and any other perks. I don't see this as being different than any other company, and especially considering it's a non-profit, I think this is a reasonable request. This should probably all be included as an executive compensation expense in the accounting, or some other method which specifically identifies these expenses. Free or discounted registrations for execs and instructors for DE is an expense and should be recorded as such.
- Brian Minkin - 09-13-2009
emayer wrote:
Quote:Tech inspection may be a harder item to deal with as there may also be national/ regional PCA requirements in regards to this. One thing I have seen repeatedly from other clubs is that tech is done only one time upon arrival to the event rather than daily.
As a tech inspector I have found many many deficiencies during tech inspection prior to an event. Cracked rotors, oil leaks, coolant leaks, half shafts, steering linkage, ball joints, sway bar mounts, loose wheel bearings and improperly mounted belts are some of the things that come to mind that I have encountered in the last few years. Although as a tech inspector I can self tech I try to get another tech inspector to tech my car when ever possible because as Mike said another set of eyes is a bonus. The RTR Tech is only $20 and is a very thorough inspection. I am surprised that more participants do not take advantage of it. And Darren yes we can tech a race car.
As to daily tech at the event looking over the car after the first day with a focus on brake pad thickness and tires is needed to keep the event safe. Personally I look at my tires and pads at least twice a day.
- dmano - 09-14-2009
Darren wrote:
Quote:Yeah I don't know the right answer either, I didn't mean to imply as much.
When I take my Acura race car to a PCA inspector they look at it and say "ummm". They don't know the car and they don't know where to start. I've had guys open my fuel door and say "your fuel cap is missing". Yeah, it has a fuel cell, the fuel flap is not used.
I'm realizing more and more I'm the exception, along with other racers. For a race oriented club like NASA self inspection makes a lot of sense. I don't know what makes sense for PCA DE. Maybe I should stop complaining, just do NASA events and y'all can work it out yourselves.
NASA has instructors inspect the cars and I really like that. I've refused to ride in a few cars. I also once found seat bolts missing in a white run group RTR car when we did a white blitz.
Also, I've found many many harness installations that are totally incorrect in cars I've instructed in for PCA. This includes things like the 6-point belt going around the front of the seat.
This is why Paul has me tech the non-Porsche cars. I have worked on and built soooo many different types of cars I know what to look for. "
Darren you are so right" belts are one of my pet peeves, I find so many that are incorrectly installed. They are the most important item in the safety check in my book.