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+--- Thread: PCA vs BMWCCA (/showthread.php?tid=1257)
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- michael lang - 07-27-2008
Yesterday I decided to blow off the usual Sat. routine and give the Mrs. the afternoon to do whatever she wanted. So I loaded a cooler full of snacks & water, packed the littleheads into the truck and off to Summit we went. It was BMWCCA club race weekend. The race started at 3:30 so there was about four hrs for us to kill, it was also their DE event.
The first thing I noticed when I was watching was that the drivers really weren't going that fast. It appeared as though they were just out for the ride. What I mean to say is that I didn't really feel like the drivers in the event were trying to improve their skills while on track. It was very apparent in T5-T9. Please don't misunderstand me, I am in no way discrediting or knocking what those guys were doing, there were some really fast drivers on the track. Let's face it, they were on the track and I wasn't. Most of the drivers really didn't have that mindset. I decided to talk with some of the drivers and the common denominator was that they didn't have any real interest in track driving and that they really were just out for the ride. I wanted to find out more and what I found out is that most of the drivers I talked with seemed to lean more towards not doing an event again. I found that hard to believe since I became instantly hooked my first FATT event 2 years ago. It definitely appeared to be different than my experiences with PCA DE. It feels like everyone is trying as hard as they can to do the best that they can, get better, and doesn't want the event to ever end.
The race was very exciting from just about every spectating spot no matter if it was from the front to the rear of the field. There was alot of very competive driving. Sort of makes me want to get a track only car and see just how good I can get.
On the way home, with the Lucifer & Beilzebob asleep, I was thinking about what I watched and the conversations I had with some of the guys. The one thing that stood out in my mind was how conservative they were on track. Is it possible that BMWCCA teaches that in their DE Program? Is it because most of the cars that were in the field are also these guys' everyday car? ( I know some of us use our cars everyday as well, but most Porsches owners don't) Or is it just the difference in car marque? I'm curious about what you guys think, maybe someone has experience with other clubs and can share the differences between our club & others.
- George3 - 07-27-2008
Hi Mike,
I can't comment on the racing aspect of the BMW clubs, but I have driven in various BMW DE's this year and last. You make an interesting point, since I also made the same observation. The drivers are much less skilled, they have much less track time, although their instruction seemed to be adequate. I guess their lust for driving isn't there, like it is with the PCA drivers.
The DelVal guys (Phila area) aren't so bad, but the weakest drivers I've driven with were BMW NY. I actually had to request to be put into their instructor run group. But even there the pace was not that challenging, except for one or two guys in 911's. DelVal actually has several senior members driving 911's instead of BMW's. By nature, the BMW (I've had several) is a street car that's OK on the track. The Porsche car is a street car, but is much more capable for the track.
Another reason could be that the BMW clubs only host from 1 to 5 or so events per year, depending on the Chapter. I don't think I'd want to belong to the club that only holds one DE per year. Comparably, most of the active PCA regions host from 4-10 events per year, depending on Region. That says something right there. I don't mean to be critical, but these are just some of my observations. There may be a correlation between driver skill vs. the number of DE's a club may organize and their subsequent enthusiasm for the track.
- I love this car! - 07-27-2008
There really is no "standard" for DE's. Each group has their own ideas of how fast "fast" is, and just how to get there. Even in PCA, there are subtle and not so subtle differences between chapters.
It is just like hot sauce, what seems mild to you may be too hot for someone else.
The real key is people having fun in a safe environment. Those same folks driving fast (for them) would most likely shudder at the thought of clipping a tire wall. Those driving their only car on track have a different risk perspective then those with track only, or track dedicated cars . That little slip/slide/stepping out that is part & parcel of a fast lap for us, could really peg the excitement meter for someone exploring the track once or twice a year.
We all define fun in our own way. Celebrate their (and your own) discoveries!
- catchacab - 07-27-2008
Comparing PCA and BMW DE programs and attendees, there are some marked differences.
BMW and Porsche owners buy their cars for different reasons. Those who buy Porsches are buying a "Sports Car", where those who buy a BMW are buying a great handling sedan (except for the M3 which we can consider a sports car). Most BMWs are daily drivers, where most Porsches are weekend cars. There are probably a higher percentage of Porsches that are dedicated track cars when compared to BMW.
Historically (until the last generation M3/5) BMWs in America have been under-powered. Many years ago, I read a car magazine reviewing an M3 that stated that BMW is more concerned with excellent braking and handling, instead of straight line acceleration. With most cars destined for street duty, how much HP does one really need. The BMW club racers that I know drive older BMWs (pre 1990), they have low HP, are light and handle very well. Modern BMWs are both much heavier and bulkier than the earlier generations.
Many BMWCCA chapters have restricted DE to hard topped cars. This has eliminated many BMW sports cars from attending (Z3/4, M3cab). If we take a current entry level BMW current generation 1 or 3 (non M) series and compare it to a current entry level Porsche (Boxster/Cayman 2.7) which is a more capable car on the track? From a power stand point a 328 has a power to weight of .0676 hp/lb compared to a Boxster which has .085 hp/lb. Handling also goes to the Boxster.
BMWCCA's DE program (ones that I have seen) have a lot of class room training.
Bottom line, what are our goals at a DE? The goals should be to learn how to be better drivers, by understanding driving dynamics and our vehicles by driving our vehicles "at speed." We should also be having fun. If the BMW guys are learning and having fun, then all is well.
- Phokaioglaukos - 07-27-2008
Depends on the BMW CCA chapter, and I belong to two of them: DelVal and Genesee Valley. I also see lots of BMWs at Trackmasters. I've driven with some really well-piloted BMWs and some that were not so fast.
The first time I was at the Glen it was with DelVal--whenever I was on the track all the instructors came out to "pass the GT3." We had a nice chuckle about it at dinner. Instruction was very good, and BMW CCA still allows instructors to give rides to non-participants.
I see younger drivers with BMW, on average, and cars that are less track prepared. A modern M3 can use lots of brake and suspension changes to be really track capable, and event then it is heavy. But look out for some of the older, lightened BMWs! They are inherently more balanced in the turns and they can be quick!
What is most noticeable to me about BMW chapters and PCA regions is how friendly and welcoming the members are. It's a great hobby!
- michael lang - 07-27-2008
Phokaioglaukos wrote:
Quote:What is most noticeable to me about BMW chapters and PCA regions is how friendly and welcoming the members are. It's a great hobby!
Yes you're right about that Chris. The Washington DC chapter of the Mercedes owners club was also out this weekend. They were on Shenandoah. Most of those guys are not very friendly. Ironically enough, a couple of them are my clients and the only reason they came out was because I talk so highly of our DE program and how much it has changed my life.
Martin, I agree with what you stated. We all have fun in our our way at our own pace. But when I was talking about the track and the BMW program, the drivers that I spoke with were just on the other side of the spectrum. One of them told me "I'll never do this again". I'm not putting the guy down.
As a whole, it just seems like the BMW guys were just putzing around the track (with the exception of the racers that were out practicing) and the PCA guys hammer through the course. Even those of us in green group! I guess the old saying is true, "to each his own"
- bobt993 - 07-28-2008
As Chris has commented, you cannot generalize about one group over another. I have raced with BMWs and Porsches on the same track and guess what, the Bimmers are a handful if not dominant at some events. The talent level in racing is across the board in Honda, Mazda, BMW, and Porcshe. PCA has decided to segregate most of it's racing community from the DE program and you see alot of guys/gals that "win" their DE's every weekend. The other clubs encourage racing as a transition from DE and drivers move on alot of times. BTW, you should hear what they say about PCA guys at their events.
- magnetic1 - 07-29-2008
Hey! We have a spy!
hock:< --- looks for Bob at next BMW event.
- bobt993 - 07-29-2008
Haaah! Hey, I may just run GTS1 and hand in my dyno chart..............
It appears from discussion with the Porsche Guru that I did not hook up the vacuum line reservoir that is behind the g(*&(*&(&dm engine!!! I am having the dealership drop the engine the a foot and hook it up. duhhhhh!BTW, shut up and go count your tires before I tell your wife how many you still need to buy.........
- Geoff911sc - 07-29-2008
It is interesting and disappointing to listen to Michael compare the two clubs with such relatively little experience. The good news is Michael is driving a great car that may actually teach him something in a relatively short period of time...no ABS, Power steering, PASM, ICU/UCMe or 300+ HP. I am a Fossil member (20+ years) with PCA, having joined in 1987 the CVR chapter in CT (autocross champion in 1989 - when it was run at Limerock in equally prepared E30 M3's). I moved to PA in 1991 and was the regions autocross chair and chief instructor for a couple of years. Club raced when the intent was "run what you brung" (didn't include pit crews, 18 wheelers and chefs). I am a certified PCA and BMW instructor (the certification program that originated with BMW and shared w PCA) and turn my own wrench. I drive with both PCA and BMW and can tell you with confidence that there are very good drivers in both clubs. The protocall is very similar. The event you visited this weekend had an abbreviated and consolidated DE run groups to accomodate the club race. This may answer Mike's comment regarding the perceived speed differential of the drivers and the dissatisfied participant. I would encourage you to come take a ride with some of the BMW instructors (as long as the waiver is signed). You will find they are more than optimizing the performance capability of the vehicle. P.S. Hope to see you all at the RTR event @ the Glen or the Del VAL BMW event @ Thunderbolt (their 3rd of 5 events this year!). Speaking from experience.......Both clubs have alot to offer! Ask many of the Reisentoter instructors that have participated in a multitude of BMWCCA events.