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+--- Thread: Lessons from other regions/sponsors? (/showthread.php?tid=145)
- Tony356993 - 11-07-2006
Quote:If so, why doesn't that information get back to me? Should we try something at this week’s event to see who doesn't come?Yes, we should try something to be sure everyone attends.
Quote:You know the track is cold, or rather your tires are cold. Everyone should be able to get around the track and manage their speed. And when someone comes up behind a guy that's being extra careful they can get around rather than being stuck for a lap with no passing under a yellow flag.I agree - no need for a yellow flag. Let the "idiot" pass after the blend line and be sure to give him/her enough room ahead of you.......
Quote:While that's only 5 bucks per person I don't know how many people would want to stay overnight at PoconoI don't think it is as much about camping but access to the track. Trailer drop off - esp late trailer drop off. Last minute stuff, etc
Quote:assigning the garages went a long way in addressing some of the confusion in setting up at the Glen?A wise move!
Quote:The maps are a great idea. And the video is an even better one. We should bring this up to Tom/Jack and see if they can incorporate this into 2007. Does this already exist for the tracks that we use?I have been thinking about large track maps for a while and I thought we could get kinkos to make just what we need. I do not know if any other region does this...it was just a quirky idea I had. Different regions refer to different corners by different names or nomenclature and I thought an RTR specific reference would eliminate any confusion about a certain turn number or passing zone...
I have seen other clubs use A/V eqt for classroom. It is very nice. Power point and video.
Quote:It wouldn't cost any more than usual but having an extra student group would more than offset the cost of the free instructor portion. The instructors would need to buy into this as it would certainly work them harder than a normal event.I think two seperate events/days makes a little more sense. My original thought was to "reward" solo and instructors with a day or two without students. This would allow ample track time to achieve the "Zen-like" state that Larry Herman always refers to. This would also allow white and black non-instructors to get additional on and off track instruction - (if they are smart enough to take it..
) If people need to pay full price for an advanced day at the track, I don't think most would bitch.The extra student run group DE day/event could be used as an incentive to the instructors. If you participate in the event with extra student groups (the future of the program) you can participate (at a reduced rate/free or guaranteed spot) at the advanced day. Many Zone 1 groups run advanced days and they continually sell out.
Quote:I/we appreciate all of your kind comments, a number of people work very hard putting these events together.Mike,
I think everyone that participates in our DE events sincerely enjoys them. That is a credit to you and everyone in the exec that works so hard for our club. As stated above by Brian, Chris and others, RTR events are exceptional. The planning and organization that you guys do behind the scenes is quite evident. Once my student graduates from college....again...., I can begin to volunteer more of my time in other positions with the club. I have tried since my days as a newbie DE driver to make sure that every event I personally thanked my instructor, the chief instructor and the DE chair for a great event. A big THANK YOU is in order from the Scalies family.
- Mike Andrews - 11-07-2006
Brian,
I hear what you are saying.... my comment is that having a yellow flag is not going to stop those things from happening. If someone is going out and driving over they head then that's whayt they are going to do. Having a yellow flag simply keeps those cars bunched up.
And you are welcome. I'll listen anytime.....
- bobt993 - 11-08-2006
Mike,
I am with you on the yellow, drivers need to be smart. Guys/gals who race want to get up to speed asap and this is part of practice for them. In a sprint race, the start usually determines the race and rolling starts hardly warm up the tires. Expect in the upper groups guys that start fast are most likely comfortable with leaning on their car immediately. Students should be listening to their instructors so yellow is should not make a difference.
One suggestion would be a lunchtime lead follow for students at low speed corner with and instructor leading, one at the tail in groups of say 10 cars. This LOW speed and it helps install the line into their heads. Speed should be slow enough not to use the brakes.
- smankow - 11-08-2006
bobt993 wrote:
Quote:I am with you on the yellow, drivers need to be smart. Students should be listening to their instructors so yellow is should not make a difference.
One suggestion would be a lunchtime lead follow for students at low speed corner with and instructor leading, one at the tail in groups of say 10 cars. This LOW speed and it helps install the line into their heads. Speed should be slow enough not to use the brakes.
Bob, I also agree with the yellow. I'll go slow for the opening lap or so of the 1st session of the day, but that's it.
As for the lead follow, the only issue may be that the path that the leader is taking may be a little different from their instructor (i.e. carousel @ SP). Some regions will do this at the start of day 1. This also puts some additional time on the instructors. I'd rather see a skid pad.
Steve
- Phokaioglaukos - 11-08-2006
I'm impressed with the dialog on this topic. Very good thoughts, and I am largely in agreement with all that has been said.
Another difference I just remembered at SP with Potomac--they did not put out any cones. It wasn't until some time the second of the two days, though, that I noticed. What do you think about no cones on track? Potomac had the same groups that we do, Green and on up, so it was not just an advanced run group thing.
- Brian Minkin - 11-08-2006
I find that the cones do assist in teaching a brand new student but once the student understands the basics of cornering cones can actually hinder progress. Besides some one usually clips them and moves them in the course of a day. When I have been out of region the policy has been that the cones are there only on the first day. At the drivers meeting the second day it is announced that the cones are removed.
- Brian Minkin - 11-08-2006
I have been to High Performance Driving Schools that incorporate the No Brakes excercise as part of the training. Never at a PCA event. Usually on the third session of the day you are sent out under yellow for the 1st half of the session and an instructor is in the lead to set the pace. You are instructed to keep 5 or 6 car lengths between cars and the instructor slowly picks up the pace. I have learned a lot about throttle steering and rotating the car using the throttle (off and then on) in these sessions. As the pace picks up you do see some of the drivers touch the brakes occasionally but for the most part everyone gains a lot of good experience from this. This really teaches you what smooth is all about. This was done in intermediate and advanced groups not the beginners.
- Hammerin Hank - 11-08-2006
Phokaioglaukos wrote:
Quote:Many of us have attended events with other clubs, PCA, BMW and others. Let's discuss what they do differently than we do that we might consider emulating.[/*]
I noted that Potomac PCA did the following differently:
The BMW clubs:
- At Summit Point the driver's meeting was in one classroom (warmer than outside) and the instructor's meeting was in another. [/*]
- At the driver's meeting they passed out a sticker to be placed on the windshield to prove that the driver attended the meeting. [/*]
- As soon as the last car was off the track for one session, the cars queued for the next session are sent out, holding up such of those cars not yet all the way into the paddock as necessary. [/*]
- There is a section on the tech form that someone at grid tech completes. That form is then presented at registration so a couple of people get a look at it.
[/*]
Let's get some differences identified, and then think about what, if anything, we might want to adopt.
- Conduct grid tech the evening before at a local hotel (Seneca Lodge, for example), although one can also do grid tech the morning of the event. That allows some to sleep a bit later. [/*]
- Provide adhesive numbers in the registration packet for each car. [/*]
- Genesee Valley sends cars from the next group out just as soon as the last car of the previous group enters pit lane.
Interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up. Being new to the PCA, one of the things that strikes me as being odd is the way the DE groups are structured. To me, placement in a particular run group for solo, based on the "range of safety" of the driver, seems dangerous. The way I see it, either you're signoff to run solo or you're not. Which means you’re controlling your vehicle at speed and you're observing all the things that make the event safe, for both you and all the other participants.
What makes more sense to me is using car class to determine run group placement, ie. their relative speed to one another. I've attended several RTR events, as a spectator, and have timed various groups to get an idea of where my car fits in. What I've seen, is a spread of upwards of 20 sec. a lap in some cases. That includes the black and red groups. The closure rate of a car, with a 20 sec. a lap advantage, is pretty fast (i.e. more chance for an incident). I've been in the situation myself at non-PCA events. It's both frustrating to the fast cars and a bit startling to the slower ones, to have a car appear in your mirrors in the blink of an eye. I think it would be less dangerous and a lot more fun for folks to be on track with cars of similar speed. As it's structured right now, that doesn't seem to be the case. At least from my observations.
Now I realize that "this is the way it's always been done" and that there are many political factors at work that keep the current group structure the way it is. I've heard on more than one occasion, "I've been promoted to X run group, yippee!". "Promotion" seems to be worn like a badge of honor at RTR. Which is fine if HPDE were the Boy Scouts, but it's not. The underlying meaning from their statement tells me that person was viewed as not "ready" (i.e. not safe enough) to run with the "upper" run group, prior to their "promotion". While on the surface, that sounds okay....but if you think about it, if the person was signoff for their "lower" group, why aren't they safe enough for the "upper" group? Safe is safe and not safe is not safe, in my book. The only determining factor should be relative speed at that point.
Now, I realize that driver ability plays a big role in relative speed. Given that, part of the signoff process should be evaluating the person's quickness given their particular car's potential. Once they're deemed safe to solo, then their class should be determined by the car they drive, not whether they're "safer" then other participants. Keep in mind, I'm referring to the solo groups. Obviously, drivers who are not yet deemed safe, would be grouped differently with instructors. Just my 2 cents. Sorry, if my thoughts bump the apple cart.
- Mike Andrews - 11-08-2006
Hank,
I'm going to jump around your post a little.
You comment on getting promoted as a badge of honor. Well, I guess in a way it is. Being human we all have some form of competitive spirit. And you are correct, they are not yet ready to run with the faster cars. Which is what I interpret from your comment even though you don't use the word faster. It all about progression though the ranks and as you spend time in these groups you gain experience. What to do in certain situations. How to handle the speed difference between cars and so on. For example, if you were to come to one of our events and we put you out in the red run group I'm assuming you would have your hands full watching your mirrors and trying to keep track (no pun intended) of everyone around you. Add to that where you are on the track and it ends up not being fun for you. The more advanced guys can deal with you (and will most certainly comment to me later about the "slow" guy out there) and once they around you they will be on their merry way. Until they catch you again some laps later.
Let me back up a little and say there are no political factors at play in our program. Having dealt with running the program for as many years as I have I'm pretty good with that and I don't get intimidated too easily. By the way, "not ready" does not mean not safe or safe enough, it means not ready. If we felt they weren't safe they wouldn't be out there. Now, with that said, we do on occasion combine groups toward the end of the weekend or have advanced days where the groups get to learn/drive together. If you talk to some of the people that participate in those sessions then you will see that they are all safe and you pay attention to what's going on around you. The slower cars let the faster cars go by and the faster cars are aware of the slower cars. It's a good fit. The difference is in the red group the drivers are much better at their surroundings. There are many drivers out there that never have someone behind them waiting for a signal. They are aware when someone is catching them and the signal is there before the approaching car gets there so there is very little disruption to the flow of cars. The faster cars and the slower cars (and that is controlled by the driver) can peacefully co-exist on the track at the same time.
Ok, back to your opening comment "range of safety". Again, if someone is unsafe, they go home. Now, I hope we can agree that this activity is not as safe as watching it on TV. We have to manage that. And that's what we do with the assignment into run groups. We start students with instructors in the car and once the instructor feels they are aware of their surroundings and has reached a point where seat time is what the student needs then they are allowed to solo. We believe there is only so much you can teach in one day and trying to keep piling on more and more information tends to overload the student. Some are better than others and it's the call of the instructor in the car as too how much they want to teach. Green students are required to know where the corners are, where the brake points are, where the apexes are, where the passing zones are and so on. Blue students start to learn some of the finer details. They should be able to push the car to feel it move under them. They should be able to deal with traffic. Some instructors believe they should be able to heal-toe. Again, it varies slightly by instructor as we all have our differences. Some instructors spend more time in the car with their students. Some instructors feel their students learn better with more solo seat time. As a result some students love an instructor that the last guys didn't like. It's a fine line between teaching style and learning style.
Car classification. While that sounds good it doesn't really work. I recall back to my first ever track event, I was driving my 930 and I was staged behind some kid in a Honda CRV. My thoughts were that I would pass him before the first turn. Well, I'm just happy he didn't lap me...... The cars capability isn't the question, it's the drivers' abilities that we use. Car classification works well for club racing where you are looking for the best driver and you are trying to put all of the comparable cars into one group.
In your second paragraph you talk about the 20 second variance and how it's startling to the slower cars. That's exactly why they are in the lower groups. Because they get startled. The higher run groups have had to deal with that and aren't caught off guard. We put instructors out in those lower run groups to see who is paying attention and who isn't. When we see/find a problem we address it.
With all that said, if you have a suggestion to improve the program by all means lets sit down and discuss the idea and the finer points of said idea. We aren't afraid to listen and we are always willing to improve our program.
- Tony356993 - 11-08-2006
Quote:When I have been out of region the policy has been that the cones are there only on the first day. At the drivers meeting the second day it is announced that the cones are removed.
I like it!