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+--- Thread: Car Control-How is it taught? (/showthread.php?tid=1562)
- Racingswh - 01-16-2009
After my father wadded up his car in turn 10 at Watkins Glen last season I keep asking the question and we have had many hours of discussion on the subject of car control. I don't know the answer as to how to better teach it or even how it is taught in the first place.
We teach "The Proper Line", awareness, safety etc. There is an inherent problem with this. The proper line unfortunately supports the most speed. The more you strictly adhere to the proper line the faster you can go without ever getting near the limits of adhesion of your car. What happens then when you exceed these limits for the first time and you never have before?? How, even when you're believed to be a capable driver that gets around very quickly, do you have any idea what to do when the car truly starts sliding? Even more to the point and at the crux of the issue is that you don't have time to think "this is what I should do now" when you're traveling 85 to 90 mph in turn 10 at Watkins Glen or 11 at Summit and the car begins to slide off the track.
Some will say skidpads which are ok for what they are. Many times they are used incorrectly as slide training courses. What I believe needs to be taught, but really can't be for safety reasons unless enough space is available, is circling the pad as fast as you possibly can while trying to maintain control of the car on the very limits of adhesion. Not inducing slides which are actually quite meaningless when related to racetrack application. Speeds are 1/3 to 1/4 as fast during induced slides as they will be on the racetrack.
Slide correction also needs to be done instinctively, subconsciously. The processing of a sudden high speed slide is almost proactive and not reactive in nature. You know you are going fast enough to know you will slide and your corrections will automatically happen. You certainly don't want to be wondering "Am I going too fast and what do I do if I start sliding"?
My Dad had no idea what to do once he started sliding at the speeds he was traveling. He was on the line getting around pretty well and then turned in too early to 10. Next he lifted and turned the wheel more in an effort to slow down and keep the car on the track. Wrong moves both of them. Problem was this was his first time ever sliding a car at speeds like that. What happened next was a totalled car sitting in the kitty litter.
What are your ideas on the best way to teach car control?
- AMoore - 01-16-2009
I was fortunate. the first time I felt my car get considerably loose was at Pocono North, in the infield part of the course (turns 3 and 4). After accidentally inducing too much oversteer, I began to do it on purpose and practice catching it before getting sideways. We were taught this in class but it only becomes second nature if it is actually practiced. It helped that I was using street tires. I am not an instructor; thus, I am not recommending this conduct, but it certainly helped me. I learned more about driving on that day than all my my other DE days combined.
- Brian Minkin - 01-16-2009
I thought about your question for a bit and for me it was Autocross ( a lot of years of it before I ever saw a racetrack) on street tires that taught me the most instinctive based car control. By the time I was in the second season of DE I began to feel the car slide and correct it. Subtle steering input and throttle steering had already become instinctive.
- JimWirt - 01-16-2009
Not that I know anything, but I agree with Minkin on using auto cross. When I do my first run I always try to get through the course. Every run after that I try to go faster. I usually spin at least once. I don't want to do that but I feel I wont learn if I don't exceed the limits of the car. ON a race track when going over 80 miles an hour I have know idea. I've asked if a car performs differently at high speed when it starts to slide and been told it performs differently.
- fasthonda - 01-16-2009
hi steve!
i've taught and coached alot of folks; all the way from total greenie greenie up to the guy who wants to knock a bit off his lap time in order to qualify better....
when dealing with the very green, i always PRAY for at least one day of rain every weekend, and i strongly recommend that we go out on track in the slippery stuff... if the car that he is driving doesn't seem well suited to wet slick tracks (high powered whatever blah blah), and he is uncomfortable going out in it, i always ask if he can borrow a friend's car to go out.... i find that a wet, slick track REALLY teaches good habits, and allows us to practice car control at much lower speeds, with lesser consequences if mistakes are made. in these situations, i keep a tight leash on my student, and we 'creep up' the speed very gently, so that when the car starts to move and slide, it is very gradual and gentle. if i could order a day (or even half a day) of rain every track weekend that i was teaching, it would be perfect!
another invaluable tool is the skid pad; not too many tracks have them available for teaching use, but when they are available (like at Jefferson) i usually insist that the student go out during his scheduled time to learn and practice. in fact, usually the student can 'hang out' around the skid pad, and go out many more times than he was scheduled for, due to many students not showing up!!! this is an EXCELLENT time to practice car control, in a very controlled environment. over and over and over, he/she can practice, learning and feeling understeer and oversteer, and how to counter and control it, and what it feels like when a car starts to slide, til it starts to become second nature....
see you soon!
todd
PS you RTR guys know that even now, after all these years, i NEVER miss an opportunity to go out on a wet track and practice myself! heck, last year up at the Glen during that washout day was one of the most fun times i have had in a long time, as was the rainy-peanut-oiled jefferson track earlier in the year! both times were really fun, and i had a blast playing with the other racers, but more importantly i got more valuable time in practicing my car control (both times i left my dry tires on, so as to make it extra slippy; when i race, i use 'wets', but typically when i practice in the rain, i use old used up dry tires). this kind of driving really gets me 'in touch' with my car, and makes me really feel like i am a part of the machine, flowing and moving with the car as it makes its way around the track. afterwards, at the next race weekend, it makes it that much easier for me to extract maximum (actually, i guess minimum!!!) laptimes during a dry track qualify or race session.
- michael lang - 01-17-2009
I don't know if there is any one method or procedure in place by any organization for car control training once the vehicle looses traction. I believe, as students of the game, we owe it to ourselves and also are instructors to be as prepared as we can possibly be. To me the offseason is such a valuable time period from a training standpoint. Yes I know there are those that think nothing can replace seattime but there are so many other things that need to be done that you can't do on the track. My offseason training includes, reading as much material as I can regarding the subject of racing, high speed performance driving, or car control. There are alot of really good authors out there. Ross Bentley is one of my favorites. It also includes, video, Youtube, Vimeo, or whatever else I can get my hands on. As well as iRacing.com for on track simulation. I also believe that being physically fit has something to do with being prepared. My point is, if you cover all the bases you will be as prepared as you can possibly be to handle anything that comes your way while on the track. Unfortunately sometimes the laws of the traction circle will get broken. The way I figure it, if I do break the law of adhesion, by doing what I do, my penalties will be far less than if I had not done any preparation.
Steve you said it correctly we you mentioned that:
"The processing of a sudden high speed slide is almost proactive and not reactive in nature."
Many of us have gotten into situations where we got into a turn a little too hot which could have been di$$a$terou$ but, for whatever reason we pulled through and came out of it with no harm. It's because something triggered and we responded (note I did not say reacted) without even thinking about it, almost like turning on the lights in a room. It was an automatic response. Preparation and programming helps to handle these situations. The more a driver has the more a driver will be able to handle. I want as much of it as I can take in.
Excellent topic of discussion by the way, thanks for posting that subject.
- TwentySix - 01-17-2009
Autocross school is the best bang for the buck, look out for them in the spring....
- Racingswh - 01-17-2009
I would suggest we explore the possibility of a car control course. Set up in an area like autocross only without so restrictive an environment as far as car placement is concerned. Have the cones set up for a loose direction guide only. Not timed. 180 degree changes of direction and 90 degree right and left handers entering at a speed where the car is guaranteed to slide and have the drivers try to keep it under control. Loss of control will be regarded as slides that are unrecoverable and require both feet in. No induced slides because that isn't the object. Going faster and faster without losing control is the name of the game.
When I am teaching a student now I realize that I am keeping them below the limit, sometimes well below. Because the cars we are in are so highly capable we are still going very fast. The more they stay on the line the easier it is to get around quickly. Car control never comes into play. I remember one student who had about 10 DE weekends under his belt and taking him out onto the skidpad at Shenandoah. When his car began to slide he did nothing. I mean nothing, no brakes, no accel, no steering input. I told him to hit the brakes and we slid to a sideways stop. I went over the concept of what we were trying to learn and take away from the skidpad exercise but it made me realize that here was a person that was active in DE but literally had NO car control skills at all. I spent the day watching the skidpad off and on and helping instruct over there and saw that my student wasn't the only one.
I have been in the car with students who slide the car on instinct. I was in a tank slapper at Jefferson and from the right seat I figured there was no possibility of a recovery. He stayed in the gas, kept his eyes down track, pointed the front wheels in the direction we needed to go and proceeded to drive right out of the slide. I didn't teach that. He had only been on a track 4 or 5 times up until then and had only been involved in DE for 8 months.
Not that I can teach it but what it requires is eyes down track because hands follow the eyes. You don't turn into the slide but rather point the front wheels in the direction you need to travel. In an oversteer slide you do not add power but you do not lift either. Either of those actions actually take away from rear grip. When you are in a steady state understeer condition you gently lift and modulate the throttle so as to add grip to the front tires. You can not lift abruptly because grip will be removed from the rear tires and now you've gone from and understeer to an oversteer condition which may happen so quickly you won't react until it's too late. All of this happens in just fractions of seconds. You don't have time to conciously process this information.
I must say it is easier to do in a street tire shod car because grip levels are so much lower. For Dad's car I will not run R comp tires again. I have chosen some extremely good street tires so that he will get used to sliding the car in the dry and the speeds will be reduced so hopefully the results will not be so grave when he makes a mistake. It will also continue to be great practice for me sliding the car in every corner of every lap for the entire session. All the while training my brain, my body and all of my sensory inputs to recognize slides and car attitudes so that I instinctively make the proper adjustments and corrections.
This is what I mean when I talk about car control
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqposOecvkw
This is what I mean by a car being driven far below it's capabilities
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoIYkQHfUbE
- opus - 01-18-2009
Let me throw in my view here as a beginner, as I have given this a lot of thought over the last few months. I have 6 days of DE under me including one spectacular un-rehearsed set of spins at the track going 60mph which I am hoping never to repeat. I have had 1.5 days of car control lesson decades ago.
Here are my thoughts:
- Auto-X: great way to learn car control as many pointed out. Downside is that one spends 1 day to drive 6 to 8 minutes. I think it takes up too much time. Alternative would be to attend some like an Evo Driving school. The Philly SCCA region is thinking of organizing one. I'll be signing up if they ever come. Could Riesentoter invite them?
http://www.phillyscca.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4885
http://www.evoschool.com/index.php
- skid pad: wonderful if you can find one near your area. All the high schools I know of teach driving lessons. We as a country spend tons of money on car safety issues, but the skid pad lessons and facilities are nowhere to be found. Isn't car accident the leading cause of death for teens up to early 30s? I am not saying that skid pad lessons will solve all the problems, but I think it would help quite a bit.
- winter driving: I think this is a great way to learn. As someone point out, rain day at DE is great way. A winter day on the snow might be even better. The Monticello Motor Club and another track area in New England offer such event.
- driving schools: expensive, but you could learn a lot in a short period of time. I think the two-day Skip Barber driving event is a great way to start. (I'll let you know as I am taking it in spring.) They teach three sets of skills: auto-x, skid pad, and slaloms.
- car control clinics: far and few in between. I know the DE BMW had one in November last year. Why aren't there more of them?
As Racingswh pointed out, I think there are far too many beginners (and that includes me) in HPDE that do not have car control skills. I am all for car control clinics. I am not doing any more DE days until I get some car control lessons and practice. I think the progress should have been a car control driving before any HPDE days. Sort of like a kindergarten days before you get to grade one. Winter time may actually be a great time for that since no one is renting the track. So, can we get it really cheap?
- opus - 01-18-2009
Racingswh wrote:
Quote:I would suggest we explore the possibility of a car control course.Again, I am all for car control clinics. I am willing to help organize such an event.
For Dad's car I will not run R comp tires again. I have chosen some extremely good street tires so that he will get used to sliding the car in the dry and the speeds will be reduced so hopefully the results will not be so grave when he makes a mistake.
Questions for you and for all: I don't run R comp tires, but run summer ultra-high performance tires (Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3). For learning to control slides, will I be better off a lower performance tire, say an all seasons high performance tire such as the Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S?