+- Riesentöter Forums (https://rtr-pca.org/forum)
+-- Forum: Club Activities (https://rtr-pca.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=24)
+--- Forum: Driver's Education (https://rtr-pca.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=29)
+--- Thread: recommended shops for alignment near Paoli (/showthread.php?tid=1585)
- fve - 03-24-2009
If this is the wrong forum for this question, i apologize. It seems pertinent, since I would like to get an "aggressive" street (ie. whimpy track) alignment for upcoming events.
There are obviously all the various shops that advertise in der gasser, but since i am not familiar with them i would appreciate some input.
thanks in advance.
fve
- Darren - 03-24-2009
Performance Automotive Inc
(610) 695-9545
3239 Phoenixville Pike # 1
Malvern, PA
Also, what car/suspension is it and what tires are you running? People would probably have suggestions on settings here.
- fve - 03-24-2009
Darren wrote:
Quote:Performance Automotive Inc
(610) 695-9545
3239 Phoenixville Pike # 1
Malvern, PA
Also, what car/suspension is it and what tires are you running? People would probably have suggestions on settings here.
yeah, i saw the add. I will call them.
Car = 996 gt3, stock suspension.
Tires = yokohama neova AD07 (street tires, borderline-R compound)
I am new to DE, but i am enjoying much so far: heck, bar, harness and gt3 seats went in this winter/spring.
I have read much about the Kussmaul (spelling?) setting which i have written down somewhere. There seems pretty aggressive with both front and rear negative camber and with toe settings. I would, again, like an aggressive setting that would be appropriate for (good) street tires without completely chewing up the tires or making the car too twitchy when i am driving home after working 12,13 hours at night.
Some say that camber is not a big problem with respect to tire wear, but too-aggressive toe and the tire life span can be measured in hours.
Clearly, any input would be appreciated.
thanks, fve
- Phokaioglaukos - 03-24-2009
For that locale I second the PA suggestion.
Alignment info attached, but it depends a bit on the tires you choose, too. The attached settings contemplated MPSCs.
- Darren - 03-24-2009
Quote:Some say that camber is not a big problem with respect to tire wear, but too-aggressive toe and the tire life span can be measured in hours.
I agree with that philosophy. I run 0 toe in front for that reason and because it's good on the track. If you get a lot of toe and a lot of camber together, you'll wear the tires out fairly fast.
I compensate by using cheap street tires. Right now I have Kuhmos on there and they are about $100/each for the street.
The rear you need to still run a fair amount of toe in with the stock bushings because they will go toe out (or less toe in) on decel. I think you still need to run about 1/8" total rear toe in (1/16" each side). I don't know the conversion inches to degrees, I'd have to find a chart.
I'm running -3' front and -2.5' rear on a 996 lowered and similar spring rates to the GT3.
Until you get a fair amount of experience though, you can easily overdo it with the negative camber, especially with a really capable car. You might want to try something more mild and then go more radical as you get faster.
- Phokaioglaukos - 03-24-2009
Darren raises more good points. Once you have a setting, use a good tire pyrometer and see how you're doing. You can find some guidance here: http://www.theracersgroup.com/news/show.php?id=372.
In short, tire temperatures across the face of the tire will tell you a lot about tire pressures, camber and toe. Here is the meat of that article:
Tire manufactures often list an ideal temperature range for their compounds. You’ll want to check with the tire manufacture to find out the ideal temperature range for your tires as a baseline. Race tires will be warmer and street tires cooler, for reference. Here is a simple chart to give some interpretation of the tire temperatures and what it means to your chassis setup.
Center of tire is hotter than edges----Tire pressure too high. Reduce 1 psi for each 5' F delta.
Edges of tire is hotter than center----Tire pressure too low. Add 1 psi for each 5' F delta.
Inner edge is hotter than outer edge----Too much negative camber.
Outer edge is hotter than inner edge----Not enough negative camber or too much toe-in.
Tire is below ideal temperature range----Tire pressure too high, tire too wide, or springs/sway bars too stiff at that axle.
Tire is above ideal temperature range----Tire pressure too low, tire too narrow, or springs/sway bars too soft at that axle.
Front tires are hotter than rear----Car is under steering (pushing). Too much front spring/sway bar, not enough rear spring/sway bar, front pressure too low, rear pressure too high, front tires too narrow, rear tires too wide.
Rear tires are hotter than front----Car is over steering (loose). Too much rear spring/sway bar, not enough front spring/sway bar, rear pressure too low, front pressure too high, rear tires too narrow, front tires too wide.
I usually have a memory pyrometer at the track.
- Bill Lehman - 03-24-2009
Another source might be Possum Hollow who uses their neighbor's (Phoenix Performance) alignment rack.
- fve - 03-24-2009
Thank you all for your suggestions.
I had the Kussumaul spelling wrong, wanting to spell it like Kussmaul breathing, but anyhoo...
[/color]"I compensate by using cheap street tires." [/color]
I have been told by many knowledgeable folks to stick with street tires for now, so i will do so (more feedback for a newbie, more progressive traction loss). With time i will likely get specific track wheels and tires, but for now...i will keep it simple: one setting and adjust from there.
I had intended to hold off on something like a pyrometer, but i guess that it will be tough to know how good/bad an alignment i have until i get a feel for it, then have some data and i guess that is the way to obtain it. So, perhaps that will have to be a priority.
I will keep all this in mind. I think that the summer/track tires are going on soon, the weather is getting warmer...
thanks again fve
- Darren - 03-24-2009
fve wrote:
Quote:I have been told by many knowledgeable folks to stick with street tires for now, so i will do so (more feedback for a newbie, more progressive traction loss). With time i will likely get specific track wheels and tires, but for now...i will keep it simple: one setting and adjust from there.Sure, if you're at that level then hold onto all of this info for later. I think you're better off driving a car without enough camber to learn. Many people never learn how to drive a car fast that pushes and it's an absolutely essential skill.
In fact managing understeer is probably the most important real-world street handling skill to learn. Every car from the factory understeers and when it rains and you slide, that's what you have to deal with.