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+--- Thread: Recommended DE Safety Equipment - Sources (/showthread.php?tid=193)
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- larrybard - 12-07-2006
I've decided that especially since there's some chance my son might also be driving my 993 at DE before long, the best investment I can make for next season is safety equipment.
My '95 993 is now pure stock. I considered buying a used harness bar and harnesses that someone was advertising on the Forum, and then after further reflection (and consultation with my mechanic) decided that at a minimum I should instead buy a roll bar, new harnesses and seats. (Anything else? I'm not at all certain I'd be comfortable with a HANS device, but I suppose I ought to at least try one and not dismiss it out of hand.)
I assume used, but not abused, seats would be okay. Harnesses seem to be at the other end of the spectrum (even if they are far less than 5 years old), since deterioration in strength (e.g., from exposure to the elements) might not be apparent. But what about roll bars? Used okay if never in an accident?
Any recommendations for brands and suppliers would also be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Larry
- jn45 - 12-07-2006
You will be amazed at how much an improvement in your driving a good seat will make. Used is OK, but make sure you get them installed by someone who knows what they're doing and don't go cheap on the mounting hardware. If you still drive your car on the street, you will find that the seats with the big head rests will be a real pain, although they're great in a race car and the safest you can get for the track. Really messes with entry/exit and visibility on the street.
For the price of new belts, used isn't worth the risk. Ditto as above for the driving, hardware, and installation. Spend a little more for the good cam-locks and definitely go for a 5 point.
Even if you're in a solo group, I would highly recommend doing both sides of the car. You never know when you'll want an instructor, and most would frown on having to deal with pure stock while you're locked in nice and snug. Looks better, too.
I wouldn't bother with a roll bar in a DE car, but Brey Krause makes a very good harness bar that bolts right in to most any Porsche. I saw one in a rolled over car and it did stiffen the roof quite a bit, even though it doesn't go up to the roof. You can (and should) still keep your street belts for street driving. If you don't go with Brey Krause, make sure whatever you buy has harness guides. Some of the smooth bars don't, and except for a direct frontal impact, they're useless. Most cars don't hit straight on (at least that's the goal), so any side load will just let the belts (and you) slip sideways.
Never tried a Hans either. I use a horse collar, but I know that's not the best. Just a little better than nothing. Going racing this year, so I think I'll break down and buy one.
Joe
- larrybard - 12-07-2006
Joe,
Thanks for your comments. The Riesentoter DE page seems to recommend against a harness bar: "As the addition and use of a properly installed 5 or 6 point harness places the occupant in a fastened and upright position in the vehicle, a properly installed padded roll bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may result in an unsafe occupant environment and is not a complete SYSTEM." (I'm also a bit confused, based on another statement on that same page, as to what exactly the new "strictly enforced" requirements will be in 2007; perhaps someone can clear that up.)
Larry
- smankow - 12-07-2006
Larry, I have a das sport bar in my car and it works fine with the harnesses although it does make the back seats virtually useless.
Another item that you should consider are seat back braces. They attach onto the bar and get placed against the rear of the seat. They firm up the seat a bit while also aiding in the event of an accident. They are not required if the seat is FIA certified, but to me, it completes the safety gear.
As for the Hans, I started using one about 1 1/2 years ago. It only took a few laps to get used to it and it really doesn't hinder vision on the track. Driving in the pits is a little more difficult.
Feel free to PM me for more info.
Steve
- larrybard - 12-07-2006
Harness bar v. roll bar -- at the risk of oversimplification, doesn't the issue reduce to: what are the chances that the car is going to roll over (perhaps a few times), because the harness bar isn't going to offer any rollover crush protection and after only perhaps a couple of hard tumbles you can't depend on the roof holding up?
Larry
- Brian Minkin - 12-07-2006
Larry,
The enforced requirments for 2007 are that if you are using 5 or 6 point belts you must use proper seats that offer harness and sub belt openings. So that eliminates factory seats and most sport seats from being acceptable. Equal seating and restraints is required for the drivers and passenger seats. Harness bars or roll bars are acceptable as an anchor for the belts. It you opt for a harness bar make sure it will have the ability to anchor the belts on the harness bar (Brey Krause makes one for your car). If the belts are attached to the rear seat belt anchor points (as a harness guide bar requires) they are subject to too much stretch in an impact. Roll bars are encouraged but not required for the upper run groups. Yes you are very upright when held in by 5 or 6 point belts and in a roll over, although the roof of a Porsche coupe may not totally cave in, even a few inches is enough to cause a serious concussion or neck injury. Head and neck restraints such as the Hans Device are something each individual driver must evaluate. However when you look at the trauma to the neck when straped in by 5 or 6 point belts during a front impact I think you will see their benefit.
- Tony356993 - 12-07-2006
Larry,
I agree with the above comments and I think the HANS takes some time to get used to. I feel that you are on the right track for you and your son - safety first!
- Mike Andrews - 12-07-2006
Larry,
Ask a dozen people... get a dozen different answers.....
There are so many variables to take into consideration that it's sometimes hard to give advice over the internet. And I sometimes wonder......
Anyway, the best thing you can do is to educate yourself on what each of these items does in the "system" as it pertains to safety. Which is exactly what you are doing.
One of the things mentioned was a harness bar, roll bar or roll cage. Do you drive the car on the street? Does anyone every need to ride in the back? How tall are you? And so on.
You also comment on the HANS device and how you may not be willing to go to that extreme. Let's look at this whole thing as a system and what you are trying to do. In the event of a crash you want to keep from hitting the steering wheel, dash, a pillar or anything else in your car. In a perfect world the steering wheel would be 5 feet in front of you and the stretch of the seat belts and the distortion of your body would stop an inch from contacting the steering wheel. But we don’t live in a perfect world. Far from it. What you are doing is controlling your deceleration. The longer it takes to stop you motion the easier it is on you. The old saying "it’s not the fall that kills you, it’s the sudden stop at the end" applies to this as well. Now, let's strap you into a car with a five or six point harness..... that's going, in theory, to hold you tighter and offer less stretch. Which in turn decelerates your body quicker. All of this has a profound effect on your neck as your head gets pretty heavy at these times. Oh, don't forget to add the weight of that fancy new helmet.
It's late and I'm rambling....... if you want to discuss certain aspects of adding safety equipment I'll be glad to talk about each of the points and how they affect you and are affected by other pieces. I can do this over this forum or by phone (215-368-9362) if you'd like.
- larrybard - 12-07-2006
Mike,
I'm likely to accept your kind offer and call you -- but obviously at a later date, not now, after you've apparently called it a night.
One question for those willing to respond (and I assume you're all DE participants):
Of those of you whose track car is also their "street" car (as is the case with mine), but aren't concerned about inaccessability to the rear pseudo-seat, how many of you "only" have a harness bar, vs. a roll bar or cage? And do you also have a HANS device?
And if you have a harness bar, why was the principal reason you decided not to opt for a roll bar or cage? Belief that a rollover was much more unlikely than a "regular" crash? Or faith in the integrity of your stock roof?
Thanks all,
Larry
- Mike Andrews - 12-08-2006
Larry,
I look forward to your call....
But for the sake of sharing information to all that are listening, in the past ten or so years I've only seen a couple of roll-overs. And way too many "regular" crashes. The two roll-overs that I've seen were a Boxster and a 930. The Boxster held up quite well and the occupant was simply shaken. The 930 went over the tire wall on the inside of the Laces at the Glen. The car took a pretty hard hit on the roof as it came down and compressed the roof to the point where the roof contacted the helmets of the occupants of the car. The “A�? pillar on the passenger side was compromised and the passenger was temporarily confined to the area between the seat and the roof. So, while the likelihood of a roll-over is much less than a “regular�? crash they do happen and the installation of a roll bar not really a big deal. Companies like Das Sport make bars that bolt in and out without having to modify (read drill holes) in your car. I would however like to clarify that in my example of the 930 a roll bar would not have helped the integrity of the “A�? pillar.