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+--- Thread: Shuffle Steering (/showthread.php?tid=2135)
- larrybard - 02-12-2010
Okay, Bobby Ore aside, what is the recommended procedure for moving one's hands? Let's say I'm about to initiate a right hand turn. Assuming my hands are roughly in the 10 and 2 o'clock positions, am I supposed to pull the wheel down with my right hand (but no further than the 6 o'clock position), with the wheel sliding through my left hand, which stays at 10 o'clock? Start by reaching up with my right hand to the 12 o'clock position, so that I can pull the wheel a full 180 degrees with it? Or something else?
Larry
- bobt993 - 02-13-2010
Larry, over 90% of track turns require no shuffle or hand movement on the wheel. The last 10% can be done without shuffle by releasing the bottom hand at max extension and gathering the wheel upon return. There are some drivers that started shuffle steering early and are proficient enough at it that it there is no reason to change the habit. If you can avoid it, your balance and therefore your cars balance will be even better along with knowing the cars "pointing" at any instant on the track. As far as pulling down versus pushing over. If the turn requires less wheel, you may want to try pushing over the top. You will have a little less mechanical advantage with this technique, but better feel.
You can experience the difference in balance by standing feet together. Hold your hands in front at 10/2 ( if you have a steering wheel even better) and have someone bump one of your shoulders from behind. See how much a step you take to correct. Repeat with both hands out to one side and or crossed up. This may sound silly, but if you COG is not good, then you cannot feel the cars attitude when at the limit.
This is not to say shuffle-steering is wrong, but keeping you balance is more difficult while doing it.
- fasthonda - 02-13-2010
hi!
bob's explanation was spot on. i'll add just a little tiny bit -- i've driven a TON of cars, and sometimes whether to shuffle or not really depends on the car, and the speed of the steering rack. both of my grocery getting racecars (honda and probe) have pretty slow steering racks, and with the big, stock steering wheels i pretty much have to shuffle in order to make big corrections (or take very tight 'keyhole' type turns). i learned to do it a long time ago, and it is second nature to me. i've never, ever, not even once, gotten 'lost' on the wheel (which i've heard some folks say is a major criticism of shuffling). now, my Lotus Super Seven, which has an almost 'too fast' steering rack, with a tiny formula racing steering wheel never needs shuffling. i place my hands at 3 and 9, and just twitch my wrists, and thats all the steering i ever need. the only time my hand leaves the wheel is to shift (oh, and to wave to the corner workers on my victory lap!
). hope that helps?- ninjabones - 02-13-2010
I can't think of any turns at the tracks that we run where I need to shuffle in my 993 (the miata is a different story). Only caveat to the comments above is one taught by an instructor at Skip Barber (Bruce). Not sure I buy the logic, but he recommended shuffle steering if you still have an airbag in your car. He was concerned that a potential airbag deployment could be disastrous if your arms were crossed in front of the wheel.
- Tony356993 - 02-13-2010
I think in addition to what has been stated about the speed of the steering system and the size of the steering wheel, one must also include the size of the driver. I did shuffle steer in the 993 and it became second nature for me. When one has only a 28" inseam, one must sit very close to the steering wheel to be able to control the pedals optimally. This situation makes getting past 6:00 very difficult. On turns that required that amount of steering, I would first move the hand in the turning direction up to say 1-2:00 then move my other hand to say 7-8:00 to be able to have the utmost control in the turn and any corrections needed. I would then shuffle back to 9 and 3. All of this is of course one hand at a time and does require a lot of practice to get smooth. I would not recommend this technique but in the 993 it was a must for me. The 911 had a much smaller wheel and the seat position was lower and I rarely had to shuffle steer.
- michael lang - 02-13-2010
Larry, Bob's explanation was extremely good with regards to balance. I was developing the habit of shuffle steering all the time as a way of getting around the track until Tony had taught me a lesson: The less you turn the wheel the smoother you will be and the faster you will go. Now the only time I use shuffle steering is going around T6 at Summit Main mostly so I can keep holding the steering wheel with my hands level (9 & 3) for the long turn until I get to T7. After that I go back to normal driving. At first, I didn't think that lesson made much sense until I started turning the steering wheel less.
- betegh9 - 02-13-2010
9 and 3........... throttle steer!
In AX.............. in some tight turns, one must shuffle.
- Darren - 02-13-2010
I think most guys that started by doing autox shuffle steer and I understand its required there sometimes. I don't really like doing it because I always want to know how far the wheel is turned. Some guys are real good at doing it, whatever works I guess....
Sometimes I tell students that I think they shuffle too much -- if you're going to do it that doesn't mean it should be done everywhere, IMHO.
- larrybard - 02-14-2010
Thanks for all the helpful advice. When I can't be driving on a track I tend to spend a chunk of time thinking about driving. (Though buying a wheel and pedals to hook up to an Xbox is tempting in the off season, I'm not at that point, at least yet, especially since there are appear to be so few of the DE tracks RTR frequents seem to be available; maybe one other than the Glen).
Braking question to follow.
Larry
- Phokaioglaukos - 04-14-2010
Just had this conversation with a student coming to our JC/Shenandoah DE, so BUMP!