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+--- Thread: anti freeze alternative (/showthread.php?tid=2786)
- Jimbeau - 04-20-2011
For DE I think we can encourage the higher run groups to run water w/ water wetter but I don't know that we're prepared to "mandate" it. I'm not aware of any organizatons who do this for DE, but doesn't mean we shouldn't consider it. Certainly something I can bring up at the next meeting.
- geza - 04-20-2011
Wikipedia does a wonderful job of explaining why antifreeze is used in cars vs water:
- 1. Maintain proper engine temperature
2. Prevents corrosion
3. Lubricates water pump seals
Keep in mind that “When used in an automotive context, corrosion inhibitors are added to help protect vehicles' cooling systems, which often contain a range of electrochemically incompatible metals (aluminum, cast iron, copper, solder, et cetera). --- If plain water is used to cool an engine, it would promote galvanic corrosion. �?
The final advantage of antifreeze is that “Water pump seal lubricant is also added�?. Without this lubricant, water pumps would fail.
I submit that in a racing motor, longevity is not a primary consideration. However, in a car driven on public roads, the benefits of antifreeze go beyond transferring heat. Yes, antifreeze on a track is slippery, but has anyone ever seen an air cooled 911 drop oil from their various lines? Should we ban oil in engines because it may lead to an accident? I would hate to slide on someone’s antifreeze just as I would hate to slide on someone’s oil.
Things happen. Things break, whether they are oil lines or coolant lines. We all need to do our best to minimize failures of any kind! So before those of us that take part in DE and do not have dedicated race cars rush to mandate a ban on antifreeze, we need to examine unintended results of rash judgments.
- emayer - 04-21-2011
Valid points for consideration though unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe anyone here is in a rush to mandate any changes in policy. The topic is an important one to consider in the interest of our mutual safety.
A quick search of the Rennlist forum for example, clearly shows a much higher number of on track incidents associated with coolant loss as opposed to oil and other fluids. If I recall, there was a fatality last year in connection with this problem. I'm not aware of any statistics on the matter, but clearly there is a trend here.
Unlike oil, there are coolant alternatives discussed that provide lubricity to seals and pumps that are relatively cheap and easy to implement save for the need of an exchange during the winter months. I'm sure if such a product existed to replace oil, the item would surly be mandated in racing and discussed openly here too.
Bottom line questions are:
1. How real of a problem is coolant loss?
2. Is water/ water wetter a safe and cost-effective alternative?
3. Should there be a policy regarding coolant alternatives or at least a recommendation for use during DE?
Personally, I favor a recommendation be in place for the upper run groups at least to bring attention to the matter. Unless PCA implements a global policy, it is our personal responsibility to consider the issue and act accordingly.
- Jimbeau - 04-21-2011
geza wrote:
Quote:
- 1. Maintain proper engine temperature
2. Prevents corrosion
3. Lubricates water pump seals
As Eric said I don't think we're rushing down a path to make any "rash" judgements on the topic, just healthy discussion of the pros & cons of both. As you point out the number of street driven cars is a primary reason it would be difficult to mandate anyway, but having seen the results of a couple of high speed crashes related to fluid loss and knowing how fast and how close we drive I think it is a highly relevant topic even if we have completely hijacked this thread for our own use.
To your points above, Red Line Water Wetter and similar products from Royal Purple, and others contain rust and corrosion inhibitors as well as lubricants for the pump and seals and are compatible with all the different metals used in various radiators which allows you to use water while addressing your concerns about corrosion and lubrication.
I can't personally see a downside of converting to water unless you forget to add "antifreeze" back for winter, but understand others may feel differently.
Regardless of which way folks decide to go with water vs coolant, one major area which would help minimize everyone's risk is preventative replacement of old lines, hoses and clamps rather than waiting for obvious signs of age or deterioration. I just replaced all the hoses and oil lines on my now 10 year old car even though there was no visible sign that they weren't serviceable. Just peace of mind.
- scwaters - 04-21-2011
Having flown off the front straight at the Zone 2 VIR this year based on antifreeze dropped I have to state that the majority of the spills I have witnessed are from GT3s
. So if we are going to ban something . . . . Seriously, Geza made the most proctical statement. Maybe we could remind everyone at the drivers meeting or an article in our magazine that cars that are tracked should have some profolactic maintenece not required on a street car.
- AMoore - 04-21-2011
Can a cooling system be inspected to determine if there is a higher risk of a leak?
Also, I have not read Dave's posts thoroughly but even if his stuff is slippery, if its use requires less pressure, wouldn't it be less likely that a catastrophic leak occurs?
- ninjabones - 04-22-2011
scwaters wrote:
Quote:Having flown off the front straight at the Zone 2 VIR this year based on antifreeze dropped I have to state that the majority of the spills I have witnessed are from GT3s
Seriously, Geza made the most proctical statement. Maybe we could remind everyone at the drivers meeting or an article in our magazine that cars that are tracked should have some profolactic maintenece not required on a street car.
Not to throw the GT3 guys under the bus, but I can't remember a club race or DE when at least one run session over the weekend wasn't affected by a GT3 spewing coolant (without mentioning any names, one particular car leaked coolant on track on at least 4 different occasions last season alone).
There is a well documented defect in the GT3 coolant system (glued fittings and crappy engineering on the collant manifold). Here's a thread from rennlist with more than 90 posts with an attempt to create a registry of GT3 owners who have experienced coolant system failures mostly while on track, and many of which were catastrophic failures. All of the guys that I know that own GT3s have had it happen (perhaps Terry, Kenny, or Graham can chime in on their experiences). I think we've just been lucky that none have (yet) resulted in serious injury.
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/592328-catastrophic-coolant-hose-coupling-failure-registry.html
As others have mentioned, coolant leaks can not be justifiably compared to oil leaks both due to the available alternatives and in terms of the frequency of failures.
If mandates about use of water are not going to fly, then perhaps at least a forceful educational campaign (even specifically targetting GT3 owners) with regard to available proactive solutions (welding the manifold fittings), use of watter, and proper inspection procedures and frequency would be warranted.
Perhaps even changing our tech form is warranted to include a line item about what type of coolant is in the car and a written "recommendation" that water be used in stead of antifreeze while on track. Also would provide an opportunity during tech for the inspector to discuss the issue with the owner.
- Brian Minkin - 04-22-2011
I had the GT3 experience at VIR this spring. Car blew on the back straight right side and as soon as I saw it go I went to the left side of the track. Driver crossed back across the track to the left side ( I guess he was trying to get the car off the line) and did not see me on the left thru all the steam. I was close to him and he blew coolant all over my car. Fortunately he took the car all the way off into the grass on the left so I did not have to make an evasive move in the coolant. Managed it but it was a bad few seconds. Once your windshield is covered in coolant visibility is greatly reduced. Once the car was stable I slowed way down and drove back to the pits at minimal speed since I could barely see. Fortunately the session was black flagged immediately by the great flaggers at VIR so no one came up on my back quickly.
This was the second time I have had a coolant incident with a 996 GT3. The previous incident sent me into a wild spin. I highly advocate banning coolant in the upper run groups.
- betegh9 - 04-22-2011
Brian Minkin wrote:
Quote:I had the GT3 experience at VIR this spring. Car blew on the back straight right side and as soon as I saw it go I went to the left side of the track. Driver crossed back across the track to the left side ( I guess he was trying to get the car off the line) and did not see me on the left thru all the steam. I was close to him and he blew coolant all over my car. Fortunately he took the car all the way off into the grass on the left so I did not have to make an evasive move in the coolant. Managed it but it was a bad few seconds. Once your windshield is covered in coolant visibility is greatly reduced. Once the car was stable I slowed way down and drove back to the pits at minimal speed since I could barely see. Fortunately the session was black flagged immediately by the great flaggers at VIR so no one came up on my back quickly.
This was the second time I have had a coolant incident with a 996 GT3. The previous incident sent me into a wild spin. I highly advocate banning coolant in the upper run groups.
Maybe we should practice skidpads with some coolant!!
hock:hock::dude:
- dmano - 04-26-2011
We do, it's call A/X in the rain