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+--- Thread: Points System for AX Championship (/showthread.php?tid=2943)
- arena - 06-11-2012
The point system as it currently stands:
Each driver will be awarded 5 points for participating in a race and 5 points for every RTR driver they finish higher than. For example, for 6 RTR drivers:
1st - 30 points
2nd - 25 points
3rd - 20 points
4th - 15 points
5th - 10 points
6th - 5 points
Or if there are 20 participants:
1st: 100 points
2nd: 95 points
3rd: 90 points
etc.....
This system obviously rewards those drivers for finishing higher than the most amount of other participants. However, it has been brought up as a concern that this will actually act as a detterant for drivers to participate when there is the possibility of light participation... Descouraging participants from making the trek when the weather might be a bit rough.
SO here is my proposal- why not make the minimum award for a winner 50 points, and 5 points less for each place after that. Therefore encouraging participation in crummy weather. Essentially, an event that was attended by only 6 drivers would look like this:
1st - 50 points
2nd - 45 points
3rd - 40 points
4th - 35 points
5th - 30 points
6th - 25 points
Two questions
1. What do you guys think?
2. Should we implement this retroactively for Race number 1 where only 5 drivers showed up?
- betegh9 - 06-11-2012
These numbers begin to look like Liras..... too many 0's. what is wrong with leaving the points system as it was? I think that the PPF should be modified to reflect modern times...... ask V.
- arena - 06-12-2012
I chose this system because it allows anyone to compete with anyone, even if they aren't in the top 5 or 6. My goal is to get 20+ drivers to each of these events and I don't want the guys placing 15th feeling like there is no point in pushing harder for 14th because the points will be the same.
I agree the PPF system needs to be updated, but it's not going to happen mid-season. At the end of the year we will collectively get all the math guys together and develop a new formula.
- NumeroUnoPA - 06-12-2012
I have never weighed in on the whole points system. While I am extremely competitive, I always focused on improving my own times. I am not sure I can ever compete with the horsepower and other advantages of the new and powerful machines. I have 3 observations on the rating system.
1. I can tell you as an Industrial Engineer with a minor in Operations Research that a handicap system that barely changes the order of finish does not really accomplish much. I am not versed in the impact of all the factors but sometimes it pays to look at the big picture. The last column in the attached sheet shows the time each entrant would have to run faster than me to finish ahead on Sunday’s Hershey course. I am not sure I could get within 5 seconds of V or Jon and 2 seconds of Stephane.
2. I have never heard of a points system based on the number of participants. Not track, cross-country, gymnastics, racing, nothing. We should not penalize those who come to a sanctioned event and half the people do not show because of a few raindrops. There should be a fixed number of points for each place.
3. I believe it was Nick or V who suggested the only way to find out who is the best driver is to put us all on a track with the same car. That would really be FUN. I have had 2 instructors drive the mean green machine at sanctioned events and neither one beat my time. hhhhhhmnmmm.
Jon, as I mentioned at the event, I would be willing to break down the formula for you. Send the sheet to davemail@worldlynx.net.
- CarreraSupercharged - 06-12-2012
arena wrote:
Quote:I chose this system because it allows anyone to compete with anyone, even if they aren't in the top 5 or 6. My goal is to get 20+ drivers to each of these events and I don't want the guys placing 15th feeling like there is no point in pushing harder for 14th because the points will be the same.
I think we are all beyond T-ball where everyone gets a trophy for participation,... I agree with Dave, as most of us all have a competitive bone,...
The RTR Club as a whole needs to do better to enroll more people in this very exciting sport, but I also believe that reward needs to be given to those who show up routinely. We have a solid core of 8-10 fear contestants, and to dismiss them, is a mistake in my opinion.
- arena - 06-12-2012
CarreraSupercharged wrote:
Quote:arena wrote:So what do you think about having a minimum points award regardless of participation, like I proposed in the original post? That would be the best of both worlds.Quote:I chose this system because it allows anyone to compete with anyone, even if they aren't in the top 5 or 6. My goal is to get 20+ drivers to each of these events and I don't want the guys placing 15th feeling like there is no point in pushing harder for 14th because the points will be the same.
I think we are all beyond T-ball where everyone gets a trophy for participation,... I agree with Dave, as most of us all have a competitive bone,...
The RTR Club as a whole needs to do better to enroll more people in this very exciting sport, but I also believe that reward needs to be given to those who show up routinely. We have a solid core of 8-10 fear contestants, and to dismiss them, is a mistake in my opinion.
- arena - 06-12-2012
NumeroUnoPA wrote:
Quote:I have never weighed in on the whole points system. While I am extremely competitive, I always focused on improving my own times. I am not sure I can ever compete with the horsepower and other advantages of the new and powerful machines. I have 3 observations on the rating system.
1. I can tell you as an Industrial Engineer with a minor in Operations Research that a handicap system that barely changes the order of finish does not really accomplish much. I am not versed in the impact of all the factors but sometimes it pays to look at the big picture. The last column in the attached sheet shows the time each entrant would have to run faster than me to finish ahead on Sunday’s Hershey course. I am not sure I could get within 5 seconds of V or Jon and 2 seconds of Stephane.
2. I have never heard of a points system based on the number of participants. Not track, cross-country, gymnastics, racing, nothing. We should not penalize those who come to a sanctioned event and half the people do not show because of a few raindrops. There should be a fixed number of points for each place.
3. I believe it was Nick or V who suggested the only way to find out who is the best driver is to put us all on a track with the same car. That would really be FUN. I have had 2 instructors drive the mean green machine at sanctioned events and neither one beat my time. hhhhhhmnmmm.
Jon, as I mentioned at the event, I would be willing to break down the formula for you. Send the sheet to davemail@worldlynx.net.
Great feedback Dave, thank you.
1. I couldn't agree more. In the little experience I have putting these results together- I feel that the PPF formula doesn't offer enough of a handicapp to truly take the car out of the eqution... but then agian I understand that it is nearly impossible to COMEPLETELY take the car out of the equation because each car will perform differently on each autocross course. The best we can do is to get it pretty close. I'm completely open to creating our own system for equalizing the cars starting for next season.
2. A fixed number of points for each place is simple, but fails to reward the accomplishment of a driver who wins in a more competitive field. Since the number of participants varys signifigantly, I feel the top performer in a group of 20 should be rewarded more points than the top performer in a group of 10. I think a good compramize is to make a minimum (like 50 points) where event if participation is less, the points are still awarded as if 10 people showed.
3. That would be a blast, BUT keep in mind that it is a major advantage knowing your own car... If we were all to drive the same car, the driver who was most familliar would have an advantage as well...
I'm working on getting a venue for our own event locally, and I think it would be a lot of fun to have everyone run in the same car. - betegh9 - 06-13-2012
I am no engineer, but I know that most clubs, they have classes, so that one competes with individuals in the same class. I recommend looking at the PCA competition rules for small clubs and go from there. PCA has lots of DATA from past years, so the classes are figured out quite well. Yes, in some classes, you will be competing only with yourself. There is no use reinventing the wheel.
- JoeP - 06-13-2012
If the Club adopts the same classes as one of the existing sanctioning bodies (like SCCA), individual cars could be handicapped by looking at the percent differences between class winners at nationals. This would not adjust for individual tweaking, but it would be simple and all worked out before the start of the season.
- csmith74 - 06-13-2012
I can get onboard with adapting standard PCA or SCCA handicap systems as well. I think trying to create an overly complex system with multiple factors does little more than confuse everyone. You're the boss big J, but you could save yourself a lot of time and headaches. Not to mention you wouldn't have to keep defending yourself on the forum
