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+--- Thread: Run Groups (/showthread.php?tid=939)
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- catchacab - 12-13-2007
I am bored. The weather stinks. The forum is quiet. Will spring ever come?
What am I thinking about? Track, track and track.
So I am thinking about lower attendance at some DEs and what can we do to increase our time on the track. When a track event is not full, does it make sense to reduce the amount of run groups, possibly combining green and blue, or red and black or splitting white between blue and black. We could even have events that are closed to one or more run groups (obviously not Red or Black).
Generally the track is hot for 7 hours (420 minutes) that will translate to
5 run groups having 4 runs of 21 minutes (84 minutes per day)
4 run groups having 4 runs of 26 minutes (104 minutes per day)
3 run groups having 5 runs of 28 minutes (140 minutes per day)
A rule of thumb ("rule of thumb" is taken from English common law that a man may beat his wife with a stick no thicker than his thumb) for DE is 10 cars/mile of track. If we stick with this rule (funny how that came out). Would you be info's of reducing the amount of run groups. while increasing each participants track time. Of course, a higher registration fee would be adopted for those events to offset loss of income due to less participants. For example, last year we charged each participant $120/day at Summit Point. Assuming the event would be filled for five run groups but we reduced the event to four run groups, then the new fee would be $145/day or if we reduced the event to three run groups then the fee would be $170/day. Given the additional track time, we may want to reduce the amount of track days for three day events to two day events. Or would having more track time per run group per day increase attendance in the higher run groups?
Let the debate begin!
- Phokaioglaukos - 12-14-2007
From Wikipedia: Origin of the Phrase
The earliest citation comes from Sir William Hope’s The Compleat Fencing-Master, second edition, 1692, page 157: "What he doth, he doth by rule of thumb, and not by art"
The notion that the "rule of thumb" was a law that limited the width of a rod that a man may use to beat his wife has been partially discredited. Wife beating has been explicitly illegal in British law since the 1700s, and has never been legally sanctioned in America. However, at least four judges and other legal authorities from 1782 to 1897 have referred to the bogus law in spite of the fact that it never existed.The non-law gained popularity after feminist Del Martin wrote in 1976:
[indent]
Our law, based upon the old English common-law doctrines, explicitly permitted wife-beating for correctional purposes. However . . . the common-law doctrine had been modified to allow the husband 'the right to whip his wife, provided that he used a switch no bigger than his thumb'--a rule of thumb, so to speak.
[/indent]
It is now firmly entrenched as an urban myth.
- catchacab - 12-14-2007
I stand corrected
- Phokaioglaukos - 12-14-2007
As to the substance of the issue, I have a couple of thoughts.
When I was in Green and Blue I was eager to have as many events with all run groups as I could, but did not much enjoy combined run groups. For example, when I was in Green with RTR another region put me in a combined Blue/White group and I was not comfortable.
Now that I'm in an advanced run group I am eager to attend advanced-only DEs where there are no instructed run groups and passing rules are as relaxed as they can be under PCA strictures.
It would be great for us to have enough advanced-only DEs and full-group DEs so that everyone could get lots of track time, but we cannot do it all. I think RTR has a special place in the NE in offering wonderful instruction for beginners and advanced drivers both and some really quick advanced groups. There are other PCA regions that combine groups and other sponsor (Trackmasters, Chin, Kojote and more) that allow advanced drivers only. There is no sponsor that does as well with beginners as RTR does (from my limited vantage point) and RTR also offers good run groups for the fast guys.
Bottom line, I would keep our program as it is. Advanced drivers looking for more track time can drive with some of the other sponsors to get that. Racers looking for a test and tune day can look elsewhere! I really enjoy the RTR program.
- Tony356993 - 12-15-2007
The system is very good the way it is currently. RTR has standards that are unmatched in other regions and that leads to well run events with real instruction.
If I want more track time, I run with other regions or outside of PCA. Green and blue students do not always have this option due to high demand.
DE is DE and RTR does a great job.
From a selfish point, I am looking forward to the advanced day at Thunderbolt.
Also from a selfish point, I'd like to have the option to stay at the track for the full day instead of leaving 90 minutes of track time unused. I understand that the volunteers for the club like to hit the road early sometimes and I repsect that position. As a non organizer of the event, I have no right to bitch but I wish there was a way this could be worked out.
I wonder if it is possible for one of the track folks (or exec) to each pick one event on the schedule each year to hang to the bitter end or allow another club member (non-exec) to be trained to handle the last 90 minutes of the day? Even if the run groups are thinned and combined, wouldn't you sometimes like to run an extra or extended session? There is no substitute for track time they say - so why give it away?
I repeat, I have no right to bitch and do not want to give the impression of bitching, just food for thought while it is 25 degrees outside.
- catchacab - 12-15-2007
The reason I started this thread is because I have noticed that some veteran instructors that you would see at almost every DE are now not present. In talking them, some wanted more track time, lower student load, guaranteed garage space, or lower registration fees. Not all agreed on what they wanted, and what some wanted, others totally disagreed. Can the region change things, not for all events, but maybe for one or two to attract these instructors back to RTR DE.
Also at events that are not run at full capacity, can we alter the run groups to gain more track time per driver.
I agree our region has an excellent program. Change is not always good, nor it is not always bad, but change is mostly feared.
- bobt993 - 12-15-2007
Eric,
Not sure which instructors you are referring to, but some have taken up club racing and balance their budget/time accordingly. I try and make most of the RTR events, but starting next year will have to make more decisions based on DE versus racing. I do not see the problem as too many students and not enough track time. Other clubs give you two students at every event where RTR does not. You may get a little more track time at another event, but not more than one run ( and that is rare). Clubs see instructors come and go all the time. One significant factor is the glass ceiling effect. Getting better, faster at a certain level becomes difficult and frustrating. I have suggested bringing a pro instructor in for that reason. We tried this at the November event and hopefully will continue it next year.
- Sechsgang - 12-15-2007
I like the way things have been as it seems like it does its best to accommodate everyone as fairly as possible. I agree with Bob about having a pro there as often as possible as it really allows those who want, the next level and in the comfortable context of the RTR's event.
- michael lang - 12-16-2007
Eric, I hear what you are saying and I'm all for more "seattime" but I think Tom and Jack and the rest of the DE team really do an outstanding job of balancing everything out to get the most out of each weekend. I am right now in green but I have a couple of DE's and other types of track time under my belt and just as Chris mentioned I can see how it would be overwhelming for the brand new driver especially if it's his first time by having too many cars on track with combined green/blue groups. I agree with what you commented on by having some type of incentive for instructors to continue to register for and come to the events. I have to say this season I had a couple of good instructors. One was good but I got the feeling he was there to drive first and teach second. My second instructor I had this year was stellar. I got the feeling he was there to teach first and that was his primary reason for being there and if he got to drive then it was just icing on the cake and I really appreciated that so I tried real hard to make him feel like I was not going to waste his time. I believe if students really understand that this is all 100% voluntary and really put forth the effort, RTR or any other region for that matter, will have ZERO problems getting instructors to return. But Eric you're right alot can be said for having more seat time as an added bonus.
That's my $.02
- JoeP - 12-17-2007
Although RTR is my home, I am a green/blue that has run with four regions over the past three years. RTR does a great job, and gives all students the time and respect they deserve. A couple of thoughts:
1) If RTR is trying to spread the joy of deriving at speed, then, the focus should be to get as many people on track as possible. The amount of "yee hah" a driver gets in the first 30 minutes of a DE weekend is much higher than the last 30. I was going to joke that it's like Marriage, but, no, it's not.
2) Please don't merge Green and Blue. Blue is just starting to get it together, but does not yet have the experience necessary to stay out of trouble with raw Green recruits. Speed doesn't kill. Difference in Speed kills.
3) It might be helpful to poll Instructors and Organizers regarding student courtesy, especially regarding time. It seems aggrevating as Hell that a significant number of people are late for required sessions and the all-important Inspection ... and have such an attitude about it too.