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+--- Thread: stock performance at the track (/showthread.php?tid=2014)
- NOGO65 - 11-14-2009
emayer wrote:
For those driving newer cars, it is dependent on us to be cognizant of what the car (and nannies) are telling us about our driving.
If you look at those systems as a safety net and a warning that you need to take corrective action, you can learn alot and safely experiment with the car's limit. Driver's that ignore this type of feedback may be limiting their learning experience and overall safety.
Eric, spot on. There is a big difference in using the vehicles systems as a learning tool and constantly bouncing off them in order to go fast.
More former and less latter.
- AMoore - 11-14-2009
I have driven a relatively low hp Carrera for a couple seasons, and a moderate hp 964 for a couple of seasons. I enjoy the sensation of tossing those cars around the turns, and no doubt some of that would be lost with a high hp newer car. But it is frustrating at certain tracks when you are not getting the rush of really hauling as*, like at the end of the uphill straight at the Glen before the bus stop. I get a huge kick out of balls out going fast. Please don't tell me to find a drag strip, as the sensation of handling a turn just right in order to get a lot of speed on the straigt, and the sensation of braking at just the right time at the end of that straight after doing 140 mph is a great thrill too.
The best race car drivers in the world are not on the Miata circuit, and they all want to go faster!
- fasthonda - 11-14-2009
hi!
the original question was basically "how does a 'supercar' in stock configuration compare to a late model Porsche with a bunch of tricks?". well, i can add some data to the question at hand!
#1. i've seen a totally bone stock GT-R (stock tires, stock brakepads, stock everything with only 800 miles on it) doing consistent low 1:22's at summit (with a 1:21.7 thrown in there). he was doing a time trial, and he had a transponder in the car. the driver is highly skilled (i race against him in PTE; he drives a Nissan Sentra SE-R usually!). he told me he was driving it at 99%; was trying quite hard! he had purchased the car just before the event (traded his 997 Carrera S on it!).
#2. i instruct for a twice yearly event called the 'Colonial Challenge Cup', which takes place at summit point. the event benefits the inner city youth of baltimore/washington. lots and lots and lots of 'exotic' machinery shows up, and we instruct the drivers. many of the drivers are very green, too. the last two times, i've had the owner of several Ford GTs as a student (he always brings the same one to the track, though. its a silver one with blue stripes). anyway, during lunch, for about an hour and a half, they have 'charity rides'. this is where you make a donation and you can go for a ride in the hyper exotic of your choice..... there is usually a really long line, and the cars go around nonstop. the last two times, i was invited to drive the Ford GT, and ferry passengers around, and show them 'what its like to go fast in an exotic car'. oh, some of the other cars that were in line were (you are going to have to forgive my spelling on some of these!): Lamboghini Gallardo Superleggeria, Ferrari F430 Stradale, Morgan Aero 8, Aston Vantage V12, Vette Z06, Ariel Atom, 911 GT2, 911 GT3, BMW M5 and M3, Viper ACR, and a bunch more that i'm probably forgetting. my instructions were to make sure that the passengers had fun, and not to hurt the car! so, i ran the car 'pretty' hard; i can't afford to replace anything on it, so i didn't run it at 100%, as i do with my honda and probe. i drove it like i drove george's 997 GT3 (thanks again george!); i kept a little in reserve for 'just in case' scenarios.... most of the cars were being driven either by instructors (or the car's owners, if they were advanced drivers). the lambos and ferraris had been brought up by ferrari/lamborghini of washington (i think they brought 3 or 4 cars). they had also brought their own drivers (the driver of the stradale was a supposed 'hot shoe'. btw, all the ferraris and lamboghinis (and my Ford GT) were bone bone stock. stock tires, stock brake pads, stock alignments, stock stock stock. the ferraris and the lambo were sporting price stickers on the windows, and they were for sale that day! ha ha! so, we all went out on the track -- every 3 laps we came in and picked up another passenger. the gallardo, the stradale, and i were the fastest by a large margin; the gallardo was a little bit slower than the ferrari and i (but i think this might just have been the driver). the ferrari and i were nose-to-tail, with me right behind him, for many laps. we came in and got new riders, and went back out, and did it lap after lap! we were turning 1:22s and 1:23s very consistently (hand timed). i'm SURE that without a passenger and if i used 100% of the car i could have gone 1:20.xxx. the Ford GT was super easy to drive fast; no 'nannies' except for ABS. immense torque and power, and neutral handling (a little too much understeer for my taste, actually). amazing brakes, too, for stock pads! the tires sucked (goodyear something or other run flats). in an hour and a half, i used up over a tank and a half of gas (almost two tanks), and i ran the rear tires down from brand new to almost bald. the fronts were only worn about 25%. the brake pads were pretty used up, too (wheels were black, and there was alot of black dust on the sides of the car). the car would EASILY hit 165 mph on the front straight, and i was braking before the first of the braking cones (no way i was gonna risk going off into the gravel pit!!!!). the comparison between the ferrari and me was a good one; we were exactly the same laptime; but i think i could have gone faster in the ferrari than in the GT. the ferrari outbraked me everywhere, and was better in the carousel. i was better in T1/T2 and the 'fast' turns. and the ferrari was able to crack off shifts so fast that it was incredible; i was super 'granny shifting' the ford GT, and the ferrari would leap ahead every shift i made.
anyway, it is pretty easy to see that a totally stock 'super car' with no mods whatsoever can run pretty far up in the Red/Black group. now, throw on a set of R comps and some racing brake pads? subtract about 2 or 3 seconds a lap!
but, big big big but here -- these are cars that the driver will really really really worry about hurting; i mean, a simple off into the gravel might really really really damage one of those cars! i feel so much more comfortable pushing my race honda civic to the max, than i was in the GT. and my civic will turn a 1:20.xxx at summit quite easily.... food for thought, yes?
todd
ReidSpeed
- Racingswh - 11-17-2009
AMoore wrote:
Quote:We often see stock lamborghini's Aston Martins and Z06 vettes driven by beginners out in green and blue run groups. I am curious as to how these cars perform in red or black compared to a fully track sorted 911.
I would like to hear from Steve H. who has now had a chance to drive a GTR on a dry track.
Hey,
Here's the story about the GTR. For the money it's the best street/track car available at this time. There is no better. Wet or dry it works great. It excels at a track like the Glen which is larger and it's allowed to stretch it's legs a little more and isn't so hampered by its weight.
At Thunderbolt 3 weekends ago the weather was perfect and I had the chance to drive the car by myself which I had never done before. The only cars faster that weekend came and left on trailers. This is against a car that's stock except for brake fluid and front pads since the stockers had about had it. In my last session I was ever so slowly gaining on an orange 997 GT3RS shod with Hoosiers and fully outfitted with seats and harnesses. I was also able to just keep up with Pete Tremper who is in the 32's- 34's at Thunderbolt as posted on MyLaps.com. Remember I am having to brace myself with my knees and use the wheel to hold me in my seat. Next year harnesses are going to be critical.
To answer your question the car is NOT as fast as a well driven track prepared 964/993/996/997. It's too heavy and doesn't have enough grip to maintain enough corner speed to stay with those other cars in the slower, tighter sections. Once that time is lost it doesn't have enough time to make up the distance on the straights with power. It doesn't require a truck and trailer either which is a plus.
Against other stock street tired cars there isn't much faster than a GTR. The GT2 is marginally but runs R comp Sport Cups from the factory. The F430 Challenge Stradale is, the Ford GT is etc but this is when they are extremely well driven. I went by a guy in a new Viper GTS blah, blah ,blah like he was parked. I am sure if we had switched cars I would've flown past the GTR as if it had run out of fuel. You get what I mean.
For those "purists" who say with all it's electronics the GTR drives itself etc. it's all personal preference. First and foremost well setup slow cars are super easy to drive. If someone has brainwashed you into thinking there is something special about driving a slow car there isn't. At Thunderbolt and you're in the 40's and on the limit your car is slow. If you have good traction sensing skills and are comfortable with driving the car at the limit of adhesion all the time as it should be there is really nothing else to do. Brake slightly, turn in, car is at the limit, and go back to full throttle when you can. That's it. Now if it's a mean, cantankerous, ill handling SOB to drive that's a different story completely. I drive cars that are very slow and fairly fast, with electronic crap and without. Fast cars for me are more fun. Does it require a more diverse skill set to go quickly in my race car than in the GTR. Yes it does. Is it easy to go super quick in the GTR. No it isn't. It's a very fast car that requires respect. It requires a constant dance between on the limit and very little intervention from the SMS and overdriving the car, tires beyond howling wickedly, brakes almost on fire and the SMS intervening dramatically and killing momentum. Shifting is cake of course but if you're well schooled in the art of shifting a standard H pattern box that's cake too. Guys like Bob, Darren, Todd, Glen and many others would be fast with any gearbox so that's meaningless IMO.
For the entry level driver the GTR is a nice, neutral, easy to drive, safe car that has good pace in even inclement weather conditions. It doesn't require much to get it into shape for the track. At that level, having fun and being safe while driving is paramount and for the money the GTR burns brightly above most everything else at this time.
Steve W. Hoagland
- Gene - 11-19-2009
At the NJMP MAW event I saw the entire green field lined up in the hot pits, I guess they had been black flagged while an off was cleared or something. It was pretty scary to see how much performance is available to the new driver nowadays without any safety gear beyond a helmet all lined up in a neat row... 911, 911 Turbo, C6, GTR, 911 Turbo, 911, 911...
hock:- ccm911 - 11-19-2009
Gene wrote:
Quote:At the NJMP MAW event I saw the entire green field lined up in the hot pits, I guess they had been black flagged while an off was cleared or something. It was pretty scary to see how much performance is available to the new driver nowadays without any safety gear beyond a helmet all lined up in a neat row... 911, 911 Turbo, C6, GTR, 911 Turbo, 911, 911...
What is even scarier is that probably some of the folks instructing have never driven a car without ABS/Traction Contol/etc.
We should have a "club training car" that has no electrical safety nets.
- emayer - 11-19-2009
I see the point your making and respect that opinion as it would be cool to sample such a car for a comparison. IMHO the entire DE field will be replaced by cars with ABS/ESP etc. within the next 5-10 years anyway. Also if we follow the argument further, why aren't we training with cars from the 50s and 60s when the technology was even less developed? Is there any data showing that DE drivers/ racers utilizing these technologies are undertrained?
While the safety systems have evolved immensely, the basic physics of driving a car quickly have not. In the end, with enough experience driver aptitude is likely going to be the same +/- having these systems on board. The difference is that those with the electronic safety net will presumably minimize bad spins or worse in achieving that knowledge. Case in point: Think of the DE wrecks that occurred this season. I have no hard numbers but it seems the overwhelming number occurred with cars lacking ESP/PSM etc. I'm not sure that could be explained by driver ability, experience, or aggressiveness alone.
We can see from the nice description of the GTR's dynamics there is still plenty of knowledge required to fully exploit its potential....
- ninjabones - 11-19-2009
Life without Traction Control
Supreme driving skill is a prerequisite for any Formula 1 driver but the class of 2008 are getting the chance to show their car control skills even more than in previous years thanks to the elimination of traction control.
Purists have long argued that traction control - an electronic system which regulates power to the rear wheels to eliminate wheel-spin - spoils the spectacle of Formula 1. But the ‘good old days' of iconic drivers demonstrating their mastery over their machine by taking it to the limit of traction and beyond are back.
The introduction of a standard electronic control unit (ECU) has seen the elimination of traction control for 2008, and the first two Grands Prix of the year have already proved spectacular - with more dramatic moments sure to come in this weekend's Bahrain Grand Prix.
![[Image: 08bahrain-sat-kovalainen.jpg]](http://www.f1complete.com/images/zoom/08bahrain/08bahrain-sat-kovalainen.jpg)
For Panasonic Toyota Racing, the absence of traction control gives Jarno Trulli and Timo Glock the perfect opportunity to show off their awesome combination of car control and raw speed.
Jarno has spent most of his Formula 1 career driving with traction control but he is famed as a true artist behind the wheel and the current regulations give him more freedom to express his passion for the perfect lap time. "The traction control ban is a good thing because technology had taken over driver input," he says. "It is good to have a step back and give the car back to the driver. It is more fun and we have more input into car performance. I like it because you need to be more sensitive and you really need to drive the car."
For Timo, life without traction control is the norm after spells in Champ Car and GP2 gave him experience of handling powerful single-seaters without the comfort zone of electronic aids. However, he says: "In the end we are supposed to be the 22 best drivers in the world and I think everyone is good enough to adapt quickly to driving without traction control.
![[Image: 08bahrain-friday-renault.jpg]](http://www.f1complete.com/images/zoom/08bahrain/08bahrain-friday-renault.jpg)
"With traction control you can go more to the limit; it's the right way to go, to bring a bit more control to the driver and that makes it interesting. It's good for the fans to see more black marks on the track again!"
Team manager Richard Cregan also has no doubt that putting more emphasis on driver skill, and providing a more impressive spectacle in the process, is a winning combination. "It's certainly given us more exciting racing and I think anything that puts the control of the car back into the hands of the driver has to be positive in terms of the spectator," he says. "We've seen that already and I think it's a very positive thing.
"Trying to control that much horsepower in a car which is quite delicate puts a lot more back into the hands of the drivers. But these are professionals and they go out there with a passion to win; they have to show what they can do without traction control. There's been a lot of discussion about it - but my personal view is, get out there, drive the car, show what you can do - it's about your talent as a driver."
The lack of traction control impacts not only the driver. The Panasonic Toyota Racing engineers have had to adapt the set-up of the TF108 to suit the slightly different requirements a driver has when he can no longer rely on electronics to keep the rear wheels in check, with slightly more downforce required for optimum set-up this year.
Jarno's race engineer Gianluca Pisanello explains: "The ban on so-called driver aids has changed the approach of the teams and the drivers in certain areas of development, set-up and driving. The development of the car has to, of course, cope with this new challenge; you want a car which is well balanced on corner exit when you go on throttle, so that the traction is still there even without traction control."
![[Image: 08bahrain-friday-2.jpg]](http://www.f1complete.com/images/zoom/08bahrain/08bahrain-friday-2.jpg)
This delicate balance will be even more crucial this weekend at the Bahrain International Circuit, which is located in the desert and subsequently is very dusty before the cars have swept a clean line during Friday practice. This puts the emphasis firmly on aerodynamic stability, something the TF108 has proved very strong at so far in 2008.
"We need to be very careful with the handling characteristic of the car particularly in Bahrain with a sandy circuit," says Head of Aerodynamics Mark Gillan. "Overnight the wind can blow in sand, so usually the track starts off green but it then gets ‘rubbered in' through the through the weekend. However, with Bahrain you can get sand blowing over the rubber as well.
![[Image: 08bahrain-friday-williams.jpg]](http://www.f1complete.com/images/zoom/08bahrain/08bahrain-friday-williams.jpg)
"With the loss of traction control then obviously the cars are more prone to wheel-spin and we need to be sure that we provide a more stable aerodynamic car just to counter any instability which may come without the traction control."
- ccm911 - 11-19-2009
If Michael Schumacher(as well as countless others) had not risen through the ranks of go-karting(w/no traction control), would he have been as good a driver? Would he have been as educated on the basics of car control? Would he even know where the limits were? And more importantly, would he have known how to react when the car had passed its limits? And finally, would learning on a car equipped with electronic safety nets have instilled him with the discipline required to be a world champion?
- emayer - 11-19-2009
Most likely yes. Gifted drivers will listen and learn from feedback the car provides regardless of the setup.
As for F1. Many of the comments relate to making the events "more interesting" and "looking for black marks" on the track again. This may be under the guise of driver ability, but the truth is they want to spice things up a bit more. A few extra spins or crashes should help, no? The drivers are still outstanding regardless, no one has washed out in the absence of traction control.