+- Riesentöter Forums (https://rtr-pca.org/forum)
+-- Forum: Club Activities (https://rtr-pca.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=24)
+--- Forum: Driver's Education (https://rtr-pca.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=29)
+--- Thread: Passing Signals (/showthread.php?tid=402)
- Tony356993 - 03-22-2007
There is a big debate right now on RL about passing WITHOUT a signal.
IMHO, this cannot be happening at a DE. There are a few folks that feel it is the fault of the lead car if they have to pass w/o a signal. The person in the car in front of you is NOT driving your car. You are driving your car and only you can determine if you are in control of your car. If you cannot slow you car and be patient and wait for the pass signal, then you are out of control. I understand that sometimes if something happens (a spin, etc) that you might have to make a decision to pass w/o a signal. This decision was made for safety on your part. Safety should be the same reason to control yourself and wait for the pass. I just think that too many folks are loosing the point of a DE. This is not a race nor is it practice for racing. There is no prize money or any awards for the best lap shown on your lap timer. Let us be sure that this kind of thinking does not make its way into RTR.
The lead cars that might be slower MUST watch their mirrors and SHOULD swallow their pride and give the point nice and early so the faster car does not have to loose his/her momentum. However, if the point does not come, be patient and wait. This is what makes our events insurable and safe.
Sorry for the rant!
- smankow - 03-22-2007
there are a few points to make here. I'll start with I fully agree with Tony on this to a degree.
I've driven in an event where passing signals were "suggested" not required. However, passing was only on the straights. You can get into a good rhythm when you can simply pass any car, but it can lead to bad situations. Most of the drivers used pass signals, anyway. But, with "open" passing, you need to use your mirrors even more than with signals. Corner workers were very quick with the Blue flag at this event.
There are a few flips to this:
- the corner workers should be showing the Blue flag regardless of run group[/*]
- the lead car needs to use the mirrors. I've heard from more than a few people that "you need to be right on my bumper to get a pass". If someone is behind you for several corners (laps for some), give a pass signal. If they don't want it they can wave it off. It also doesn't mean that they don't EVER want a pass signal.[/*]
- It's not fun sitting behind someone for several corners/laps because you don't get a pass signal.
At SP in November, I had someone pass w/o a signal that almost led to a crash. I was sitting behind a car from T3 to T9. When I finally got the pass signal, the car that caught me (due to the front car) decided to pass both of us w/o any signal. That car was at my door when I got the signal to pass. Fortunately, I saw the other car and waited before passing or I would have moved right into his drivers door.
Open passing is ok in certain environments and ONLY when all participants are aware of it. It is not something that I'd recommend for lower run groups. And, I'm fine if it doesn't make it's way into RTR DE, either.
Steve
- Mike Andrews - 03-22-2007
Tony - Steve,
You guys are talking about two different things. At least I think you are. Tony's talking about "our" DE's. And by our, I mean RTR, but PCA as a whole should be the same.
On the rare occasion that I was out on track and I encountered someone that wasn't playing by the rules I simply went over to them in the pits and had a heart to heart. Now, I'm gonna assume that being the track chair has a slightly different affect than some Joe walking over, but I'd like to think you could have a meaningful conversation and work things out. If you can't then you should find Tom and let him handle it.
It's one thing for Jim and I to go out and play at an event that allows passing without signals. It's a totally different thing to have someone that has never run with us try to take a pass without a signal.
FWIW, passing without signals was probably the most common issue I had to deal with over the past 10 years. Most of the time the offending person was very apologetic and promised to pay attention for the rest of the weekend, but I did have a couple of people want to argue with me. Go figure. And on one occasion I had a student come up to me and say his instructor told him to pass without a signal. That instructor no longer plays with us.
The end result is it takes a certain kind of discipline to sit behind a car and wait for a signal while your buddy gets away. If you don’t have the ability to do that then you should go play with one of the other groups.
- Tony356993 - 03-22-2007
Quote:The end result is it takes a certain kind of discipline to sit behind a car and wait for a signal while your buddy gets away. If you don’t have the ability to do that then you should go play with one of the other groups.Mike,
You have nailed my position on this completely.
Anyone can make a mistake but it should be a very rare instance for someone to pass w/o a signal in PCA DE. I instruct students to stay directly behind the car in front and wait for the pass. Do not anticipate the pass be patient. The folks on RL are trying to "justify" a particular situation and I feel that if you are in control of your car and in control of the "red mist", these situations can be avoided.
I am not suggestiong that a DE be run w/o using signals.
- Brian Minkin - 03-22-2007
There was certainly some very strange passing behavior going on in the black run group at Zone 2 VIR. I would give a car an early pass as I entered the front straight and even with me lifting off the throttle it would take forever for these guys to complete the pass. As they are taking their Sunday drive sort of pass a really fast car would come up and I would give them the pass as well. In an instant they are up on the first car who is completing their Sunday drive pass and slowing down as they get back on the line. There is no room for car 2 to tuck in as I am now gaining on the first car I gave the pass too. Car 2 has no choice at that point but to pass car 1 who is not giving them a passing signal. Scary stuff. I have never before experienced anything like it and their was more then one driver taking forever to complete the pass they where given. I also found myself in a situation a couple of times where the car I gave a pass to gets back in line, comes up on the next car which is very slow and gives both of us the pass. (two signals). The guy would pull out and then do the really slow pass thing. I would pull out and have to lift or even brake because car 1 is backing off as they get back on the line. ( its still 1000 feet to turn 1). Also had a situation on the back straight after Oak Tree that cars would pass left and then stay left and have me pass them on the right instead of getting back on line and having me pass them on the left after they got back on line. So I am zigging doing a left pass and then getting back on line to take the right pass. Worked but did not make sense. Perhaps this is just the result of putting a lot of cars together that have not driven together before but I think some people put themselves in black that did not have the experience it takes to run in that fast a group.
I am not trying to justify the situations that occured at VIR. I would never be comfortable running in a passing signals optional group. Just let it be that these guys would not be running in black if they where RTR participants so I don't think these situations would be common at our events.
- smankow - 03-22-2007
it must be a "Zone" thing because the Zone 1 at The Glen last year had many people in White who didn't give passes other than on the straights (front, top of esses and toe/heel). And, they'd only give one pass signal.
I'd be behind a n/a 944, 356, ancient 911 from the front straight until the top of the esses. It really forced you to quickly learn pass management and when to close on a car. The problem was that they didn't use the mirrors then you'd be on their tail at a fast closing speed. The other problem was the lack of BLUE flags (aka the invisible flag) being shown by corner workers.
while it was a very good learning experience and helped with patience, it gets extremely frustrating when it happens too much.
Steve
- Sechsgang - 03-22-2007
OBV from a students perspective...
I think the passing signals are a necessary "pain". The aknowledgement of a imminant pass is a comforting thing for the passer and just makes life a bit less stressful when passing. BUT...something I DID notice is that, and I dont know if this is just with me, in the Blue group, people would NOT THROW A PASS untill after winding out 2nd or 3rd gear...that just made life particularly annoying because I would at times have to compromise a line into say the Esses (not a great place for that to happen...) because some guy in a NA carrera thinks he can hold me off in the straights after I was fully attached to his bumper at the end of whatever corner...
I guess I would just want signals earlier...
To Brian...I cant believe that stuff happens in the black group! Are the cars passing you just that slow or are the people just being really lazy?
- Tony356993 - 03-22-2007
Quote:Perhaps this is just the result of putting a lot of cars together that have not driven together before but I think some people put themselves in black that did not have the experience it takes to run in that fast a group.Good points. At the Zone stuff (1 or 2), there are many folks that you are not used to driving with on the track. The other situation @ VIR was that any Red driver from their own region that was not instructing was put into the black group. Add this to some of the black drivers being really slow and you got a real mix of speeds. It was not an ideal black group.
I am not trying to justify the situations that occured at VIR. I would never be comfortable running in a passing signals optional group. Just let it be that these guys would not be running in black if they where RTR participants so I don't think these situations would be common at our events.
All the more reason to control yourself and your car and wait for a pass signal. Yes it can be very frustrating as Steve mentioned but a quick chat with the lady/gent should rectify the problem for the next run. If you just bitch about it to your friends and take no action, then get prepared to get "stuck" n every session for the rest of the w/e.
- Tony356993 - 03-22-2007
Quote: I was fully attached to his bumper at the end of whatever corner...Drew my man, do no try this technique often at a DE..........only bad things can happen. If you spook the blue student in front of you and he/she lifts, you got some major repairs to handle. Save it for Monaco.
- Mike Andrews - 03-22-2007
Sechsgang wrote:
Quote:I think the passing signals are a necessary "pain". The aknowledgement of a imminant pass is a comforting thing for the passer and just makes life a bit less stressful when passing. BUT...something I DID notice is that, and I dont know if this is just with me, in the Blue group, people would NOT THROW A PASS untill after winding out 2nd or 3rd gear...that just made life particularly annoying because I would at times have to compromise a line into say the Esses (not a great place for that to happen...) because some guy in a NA carrera thinks he can hold me off in the straights after I was fully attached to his bumper at the end of whatever corner...
I guess I would just want signals earlier...
To Brian...I cant believe that stuff happens in the black group! Are the cars passing you just that slow or are the people just being really lazy?
This very thing is one of the items I use as a criteria in moving a student up. If they have a train behind them, they aren't ready. If they aren't aware of their surroundings, they aren't ready. It doesn’t matter how fast they are.
Have you had a ride in the red run group? Driving at that level you spend a lot of time glancing in your mirrors. Notice I said glance, not stare. I look in my mirrors (all of them) coming into turns, coming out of turns, after I've checked my gauges and after I turn the page of my book (just checking if you guys are paying attention). What I'm trying to say is they/we know where they are and what's around them. And as a result you don't spend a lot of time waiting for a point by. By the time you get to the car in front of you, they are pointing you by.
One of my earliest memories was at Pocono at a NNJR where the guy in front of me and I were turning similar lap times. We would follow each other for a couple of laps and then point the other by and then follow for a couple of laps. We'd catch cars and work our way through and at the end of the session we were grinning from ear to ear and had to do that high five thing. Yeah, I know it would have been so much better without that high five but we got caught up in the moment.
I’d like to make a comment about the slow guys at the zone events. Over the years I’ve had a number of out-of-region guys comment on how fast our respective groups are compared to their region. Over the years, Kurt, John, Jim and Brian have done an outstanding job in teaching our region how to safely, and apparently quickly, get around the track.