Honda Civic crash at Thunderbolt - post mortem

[fasthonda]

hey guys.

i just finished unloading the Civic out of my trailer (had to clear out the trailer, because i need to prep the Probenstien and load it for the last NASA race weekend of the year)....   i was able to remove what was left of the driver's side rear hub, and bolted on a new bearing/hub assembly.  i could then reattach the wheel, and drive it down to my garage (no brakes though, as the braking system was severely damaged when the wheel sheared off, thus resulting in letting out all the brake fluid during my crash!).

i carefully looked over the broken parts, and took some quick pictures;  the hub appears to have been in perfect shape -- no rust whatsoever, no visible damage anywhere on it, and the bearing was perfectly tight and smooth.  that is the third bearing/hub assembly on that corner;  i had replaced it two times in the past, when the bearing started to 'growl' and make noise, and when tested, had some noticable play in it (last replacement was about 3 yrs ago).  this one was good right up until BANG!  SCREECH!  CRASH!!!!!

here are two pictures of the hub/bearing assembly:





here are a few pics of the car and the damage;  its going to need at least a new rear quarter, a door skin, mirror, taillight, side glass, lower control arm, brake cylinder/drum/shoe/hardware assembly, and perhaps a rear trailing arm and spindle:





the good news is that the engine started right up, and isn't leaking anything....  all gauges were in the green, and it sounded strong, and MEAN! 

well, that's all for now;  i wish i could make it to the 'Thank You' dinner, but i will be driving south to Summit Point that evening towards my last race of the year!  have fun at the dinner, guys!

todd

 

[George3]

Todd........

In many ways, you are a very lucky man.  Sorry about the Civic, but glad you're OK.

[Gene]

Holy hell!  I never would have guessed that would be the mode of failure, I figured the stub axle itself had broken off.  Do you have any pictures of a new one?  I'm curious to see if there is a fillet around that edge or if it's a hard edge.  Also was that a genuine honda part or a made in china el cheapo?

[fasthonda]

good morning, gene!

the hub appears to be cast in one part, and then machined, and then the bearing is pressed in (i have a brand new hub/bearing assy here -- you can see a slight purple discoloration where the hub was probably heated when the bearing was pressed in, in order to make that job easier);  the area where the hub casting failed is definitely radiused;  i'd say about 1/4" radius...    i buy the bearing and hub as a complete assembly, ready to install;  i did not purchase it at a honda dealership, but i believe it is a good quality part;  it is packaged 'National Hub and Bearing', and is marked 'Federal Mogul', made in USA (michigan).

here are two pictures of the brand new hub/bearing assembly (i put it on the car so that i could limp it out of the trailer and down to the garage;  now i have the entire trailing arm pretty much stripped of everything!):





i have replaced the drivers side rear hub/bearing twice, and the passenger side once.  the typical symptoms i have seen have been a 'growly' noise when cornering hard, and then when i check it by lifting and rocking the wheel, there is typically some visible play (1/16" or so).  that is when i disassemble and remove the entire hub/bearing, clean the spindle, and reinstall a fresh assembly.  Not so, this time!  everything was fine and perfect right up til BANG!  CRASH!

hope that helps answer some of your questions!

todd

[Darren]

It looks like the same exact part as on my car, I'll have to see if the part numbers are the same.  I use the Timken (Japan) bearing, which I'd expect is the same quality as the Federal Mogul part.

Are those ARP studs you pressed in?

It's funny the variation in price between these kinds of parts -- hubs, tie rod ends, ball joints.  I never use the Chinese ones they are total crap.  The ball joints, for example, have a cast shell on them and they are about $6.  The good ones are about $25.  Same thing with the hubs, I paid $77 for mine and there were cheap Chinese ones selling for $30.

[fasthonda]

hi darren!  

those are just the 'regular' studs that come pre-pressed in from the factory;  the assembly is basically totally ready to bolt in;  its a hub, bearing, seals, wheel studs.  just unbolt the old one, and install the new one!   i seem to recall the price was around $75 for mine, too.   the bearing shell itself has 'NTN   Japan' imprinted on it, in tiny letters, on the outside of the race.....

part of my problem might come from the fact that when stock, the car had 102 flywheel horsepower, and its top speed was about 105 mph.  now, it routinely hits its revlimiter of 8200 rpm in 6th gear (154 mph);  i was just short of that at Thunderbolt, but i was braking super super early cause of the crap brake pads;  that afternoon, i was planning on switching fromt the street pads to my race pads, and was going to put on some good R comps, to see just what kind of laps i could turn!

those kinds of speeds and forces probably weren't really considered when the engineers designed that car in 1992!  i've strengthened just about everything that can be strengthened, using parts from Integras, RSXs, etc.  but some parts still have no 'uprated' replacement, and i have to live with the Civic stuff!

todd

PS  i am pretty sure that the Civic hubs and the integra hubs in the rear are the same.  the Integra hubs and knuckles up front are bigger (i have those on the front of my Civic) than the Civic units.   the biggest possible parts are the rare Integra Type R parts, which are almost impossible to find and mega $$$.   they are 5x100 instead of 4x100 bolt pattern, and utilize even bigger axles, bearings, and hubs.  they are the holy grail, if you can locate the parts!!!!  (and at this juncture, i'd have to junk my 16 wheels and tires, and throw out my 4 spare axles, and, well, that just isnt going to happen!).

[Darren]

Nice, NTN are great bearings (Japanese).  More than the HP I think it's the g-forces that we are carrying, especially with the light cars and really sticky tires.  Thunderbolt is really super sticky compared to most of the surfaces we run, and coming through that carousel I'm sure you were pulling some g's -- new track surface, highest g-force spot of the track.

Interesting that those studs come with the hub -- the hubs I've been buying have factory style studs which I break pretty quickly.  I press them out and put in ARP studs which look exactly the same as the ones on that Federal Mogul unit.

As simple as these hubs are to change (literally 5 minutes???) I think I'm going to start changing them every year.  Sounds wasteful I guess but that is about the worst possible kind of failure to have.  Once it goes the rest is in the hands of the Track Gods.

I know you're a great driver but not so sure it's possible to drive a car on 3 wheels  

[Gene]

Is it possible to change your brake master cylinder to a dual circuit model so in the event of a break in the fluid lines you only lose the brakes on one end of the car instead of all of them?

[fasthonda]

i'm sure anything is possible;  i already have a 1" GSR ABS master cylinder and vac booster in the car (upsized from the 13/16" civic unit).  i bet it would take alot of engineering and fab work to fit some kind of aftermarket unit.....

hey, its all part of the fun and excitement of driving on track, having these little 'surprises' happen!

if i'd been racing that weekend, when the wheel came off, i'd most likely have been in a mess of heavy traffic, cause it was only my 3rd lap....  now THAT would have been exciting!  wheel comes flying off, bounces off a couple of cars, all the while i am spinning and flying off backwards, and watching the cars barrel down on me!  ha ha! 

lets hope the Probenstien hasn't been talking to the civic and gotten any bad ideas!!!  i've got to load it up and get ready for the NASA races at Summit next weekend!

todd