Health Care Passed

[ccm911]

I can not believe that I actually am in agreement with A. Moore!

All of you right wingers, where were you when Bush/Cheney started their illegal war and were lining the pockets of their buddies in Haliburton?  Or when they all but looked away as Wall Street thugs ran amok?

Oh, I see how this works.  If the money is spent to help the less fortunate, then we are dangling precariously on the verge of "gasp!", Socialism, or even worse, Communism.

But if the same money is spent on War and Fat Cats, then all is well in the snuggly world of Capitalism.

And the funny thing is.... most of these Tea Party idiots look like they are staight out of the Trailer park, and wll most likely need these government services about which they bitch!

Face it Republicans...YOU LOST!!!!  Get over it.

[AMoore]

dmano wrote:

So does that also mean that not all lawyers are in it for the money? Why then are they all sue happy and are getting richer than a Dr. that saves lives? Back in the day our parents wanted us to become Dr's now they want us to be lawyers all for the almighty dollar... funny huh

All lawyers are sue happy. I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to bet that less than 15 percent of lawyers are Plaintiff's lawyers. I'd estimate that at 75 percent of the attorneys are transactional (contract) lawyers, corporate lawyers, criminal lawyers, policticians, educators, solicitors, JAGS, AGs, civil defense lawyers, etc. Some make a lot of money, and some do not. The vast majority make less than $100k per year. I don't know anyone who became a lawyer for the money.

[emayer]

ccm911 wrote:

I can not believe that I actually am in agreement with A. Moore!

All of you right wingers, where were you when Bush/Cheney started their illegal war and were lining the pockets of their buddies in Haliburton? Or when they all but looked away as Wall Street thugs ran amok?

Oh, I see how this works. If the money is spent to help the less fortunate, then we are dangling precariously on the verge of "gasp!", Socialism, or even worse, Communism.

But if the same money is spent on War and Fat Cats, then all is well in the snuggly world of Capitalism.

And the funny thing is.... most of these Tea Party idiots look like they are staight out of the Trailer park, and wll most likely need these government services about which they bitch!

Face it Republicans...YOU LOST!!!! Get over it.

It's Tit-for-Tat mentality like this in Washington that has screwed us all to begin with.

Time to face the music: We all are losing.

[cjbcpa]

ccm911 wrote:

I can not believe that I actually am in agreement with A. Moore!

All of you right wingers, where were you when Bush/Cheney started their illegal war and were lining the pockets of their buddies in Haliburton? Or when they all but looked away as Wall Street thugs ran amok?

Oh, I see how this works. If the money is spent to help the less fortunate, then we are dangling precariously on the verge of "gasp!", Socialism, or even worse, Communism.

But if the same money is spent on War and Fat Cats, then all is well in the snuggly world of Capitalism.

And the funny thing is.... most of these Tea Party idiots look like they are staight out of the Trailer park, and will most likely need these government services about which they bitch!

Face it Republicans...YOU LOST!!!! Get over it.

Looks like the right hasn't cornered the market on wingnuts.

I've reread the thread and am unable to find a reference to Bush/Cheney, Republicans, Wall Street, the Tea Party or Halliburton. For a brief moment, it looked like we were on the cusp of having a civil discourse, but alas it was not to be.

There are things I don't like in the health care bill for a lot of reasons but it comes down primarily to my pocketbook and I will make no apologies for that. This legislation will create an extremely intrusive central government (fully 20% of our GDP when completely rolled out). That combined with the debt we will be forced to incur because of this and the impact of other decisions, by both the left and the right, creates a very real risk that another inflationary meltdown may be in our future. At a minimum, a sharp curtailing of all these "benefits" that people seem to think come for free. There were real issues that should have been addressed and weren't such as tort reform, real competitive markets for insurance, negotiated pricing with drug companies, etc. What a wasted opportunity.

Now, I am fully capable of spending my own money, I don't need any help from the government. However, I add it up like this, not scientific, but close enough to make a point:

35.00% marginal tax bracket, like a lot of 'toter's I'll venture
6.25% FICA tax on my payroll
.55% Medicare tax estimate for someone in the 35% bracket (for the time being, talk of lifting cap, the it's 1.65%)
1.95% State tax, less Federal benefit
1.65% Phila city tax, less Federal benefit
1.50% Annual sales tax (If I spend only 25% of my annual income on taxable items)
-----------
46.90%
2.60% Property taxes, less Federal benefit, this % goes down as income goes up, but only if property tax growth is less

-----------
49.50%

So the government in all its forms takes roughly half of every extra dollar I make. Probably more if I was a heavy beer drinker and cigar smoker, Aaron ;-)

How much is enough. Apparently not 50% because I didn't include the new ADDITIONAL 3.8% tax on dividend, interest and capital gains. Good luck to all the retirees, they will really need the prescription drug benefit now.

So where's the incentive to succeed in our system anymore? Apparently no one has an obligation to act like an adult. Get into trouble and Uncle Sam will come to the rescue and protect you from yourself. Lost your job, TWO years of benefits. Signed a bad mortgage contract, we'll give you a do-over so you won't have to live up to your obligations. Spend like a drunken sailor your whole life and forget to salt something away for your golden years, We'll provide health care and pension income for life. (I'm being somewhat facetious to make a point to all you literalists.)

These are all great programs, but they've gotten way out of hand. It's no longer a social safety net, its a beach side hammock and its sucking the life out of my spirit.

[ccm911]

Boo! Hoo!

And I guess Dave and I should be thanking you for judging our posts.  Between his profanity, and my uncivilized reaction, you mst be a quite a tizzy.

[cjbcpa]

ccm911 wrote:

Boo! Hoo!

And I guess Dave and I should be thanking you for judging our posts. Between his profanity, and my uncivilized reaction, you mst be a quite a tizzy.

No thanks necessary. Still waiting for a thoughtful response though.

CB

[AMoore]

cjbcpa wrote:

ccm911 wrote:

I can not believe that I actually am in agreement with A. Moore!

All of you right wingers, where were you when Bush/Cheney started their illegal war and were lining the pockets of their buddies in Haliburton? Or when they all but looked away as Wall Street thugs ran amok?

Oh, I see how this works. If the money is spent to help the less fortunate, then we are dangling precariously on the verge of "gasp!", Socialism, or even worse, Communism.

But if the same money is spent on War and Fat Cats, then all is well in the snuggly world of Capitalism.

And the funny thing is.... most of these Tea Party idiots look like they are staight out of the Trailer park, and will most likely need these government services about which they bitch!

Face it Republicans...YOU LOST!!!! Get over it.

Looks like the right hasn't cornered the market on wingnuts.

I've reread the thread and am unable to find a reference to Bush/Cheney, Republicans, Wall Street, the Tea Party or Halliburton. For a brief moment, it looked like we were on the cusp of having a civil discourse, but alas it was not to be.

There are things I don't like in the health care bill for a lot of reasons but it comes down primarily to my pocketbook and I will make no apologies for that. This legislation will create an extremely intrusive central government (fully 20% of our GDP when completely rolled out). That combined with the debt we will be forced to incur because of this and the impact of other decisions, by both the left and the right, creates a very real risk that another inflationary meltdown may be in our future. At a minimum, a sharp curtailing of all these "benefits" that people seem to think come for free. There were real issues that should have been addressed and weren't such as tort reform, real competitive markets for insurance, negotiated pricing with drug companies, etc. What a wasted opportunity.

Now, I am fully capable of spending my own money, I don't need any help from the government. However, I add it up like this, not scientific, but close enough to make a point:

35.00% marginal tax bracket, like a lot of 'toter's I'll venture
6.25% FICA tax on my payroll
.55% Medicare tax estimate for someone in the 35% bracket (for the time being, talk of lifting cap, the it's 1.65%)
1.95% State tax, less Federal benefit
1.65% Phila city tax, less Federal benefit
1.50% Annual sales tax (If I spend only 25% of my annual income on taxable items)
-----------
46.90%
2.60% Property taxes, less Federal benefit, this % goes down as income goes up, but only if property tax growth is less

-----------
49.50%

So the government in all its forms takes roughly half of every extra dollar I make. Probably more if I was a heavy beer drinker and cigar smoker, Aaron ;-)

How much is enough. Apparently not 50% because I didn't include the new ADDITIONAL 3.8% tax on dividend, interest and capital gains. Good luck to all the retirees, they will really need the prescription drug benefit now.

So where's the incentive to succeed in our system anymore? Apparently no one has an obligation to act like an adult. Get into trouble and Uncle Sam will come to the rescue and protect you from yourself. Lost your job, TWO years of benefits. Signed a bad mortgage contract, we'll give you a do-over so you won't have to live up to your obligations. Spend like a drunken sailor your whole life and forget to salt something away for your golden years, We'll provide health care and pension income for life. (I'm being somewhat facetious to make a point to all you literalists.)

These are all great programs, but they've gotten way out of hand. It's no longer a social safety net, its a beach side hammock and its sucking the life out of my spirit.

Chris,

I think we are getting off point and are now focusing on taxation generally. I agree we are taxed too much. Healthcare reform legislation will have a tiny impact on your overall tax burden. There are less beneficial and more wasteful programs out there that we should be attacking. How much was spent on deposing Sadaam Hussein, the dictator of one of the most secular nations in the Middle East, that posed less of a threat to our country than the numerous nations that actually harbored terrorists that have done us harm and intend to harm us in the future? How much money is being spent in Iraq to wipe out the new terrorists that occupy Iraq as a result of the War?

Getting back to the issue, there is obviously disagreement as to whether this reform will lower the defecit or increase it. Ultimately, this will determine the extent of taxation. Nonetheless, it seems people are focusing on this reform as just another entitlement program designed to address the needs of the poor, who may be poor as a result of their own poor decision making. Actually, they already had healthcare. I, however, believe the working poor and their children should have access to healthcare. I also believe that most people who have healthcare have no concept of what type of coverage they actually have. I'd hate to see any of my RTR bretheren get stuck with a deadly but curable disease, think they have adequate healthcare, only to find out that it is capped.

[emayer]

Let there be no doubt the legislation will increase the deficit (in the long-term) while reducing quality of care.  I'm not against the idea of reform, but this legislation simply increases government control while relying heavily on malfunctioning delivery systems.  We briefly discussed how the restraints placed on the CBO estimates hide the true costs of this plan.  Chris wisely demonstrated our current tax burden minus this plan, the phase out of the "Bush" tax cut, and our increasing deficit load which will need to be repaid.  Politics aside, it doesn't make financial sense!

The points of contention from people like Chris and myself is that reform could have come about more efficiently through more pragmatic solutions such as opening the marketplace, allowing purchasers to pool resources to lower coverage costs, tax incentives for the purchase of private insurance, correcting the "doctor fix", tort reform, etc. 

Of course none of this suits the philosophy of those currently in power who feel that the government should be the sole arbiter of our well-being and happiness from cradle to grave.  After all, what greater way is there to retain power than to make more people reliant on government for their existence?

[ccm911]

cjbcpa wrote:

No thanks necessary. Still waiting for a thoughtful response though.

CB

Oh, you want thoughtful?

http://www.costofwar.com/

[cjbcpa]

Thank you Eric,

Additionally, I would add, there is only a finite pool of funds to go round. As a society, we seem unable to set priorities and live within our means. We want it all and we want it now, and at no cost it seems. We'll let future generations worry about that.

I have tremendous sympathy for the plight of the poor and the struggling working class. I've served on a United Way services cabinet for over seven years evaluating social programs as well as volunteering for Habitat for Humanity (in case my cred is in doubt). I just don't happen to believe wealth re-distribution and central planning is the right answer. What did Margaret Thatcher say" Socialism works great until you run out of other peoples money."

I'd like to believe that growth in the economy will raise tax receipts and mitigate all this. Unfortunately, I think we're going to be stuck in a funk for a while and the debts will pile up faster than we can manage. I just hope we find a leader who can herd the cats of our congress into making the tough decisions before its too late. There were no tough decisions in this health care bill, it was all about expanding benefits, spending money and doling out favors. My instinct is that the projections that forecasting deficit reduction will be an illusion and we'll end up with another fiscal mess. It's like some law of nature, whenever money passes through the government's hands the friction causes a tiny fraction to reach its intended purpose.


ccm911 wrote:

Oh, you want thoughtful?

http://www.costofwar.com/

Nice, I guess an "original" thought was too much to ask for.

To put it in perspective that is less than 10% of this:

http://defeatthedebt.com/