Is Schroth Quick Fit Pro Harness Approved for PCA DE?

[ToddPhilly]

I recently did summit point with my father in law in his C4S, and I got addicted.  I currently have a bone-stock 2007 bmw 335i coupe that I'm hoping to setup for combined street/track use for next year.   I came across the following 4-pt harness by Schroth:

http://www.schrothracing.com/products/streetlegal/2315

I know the tech form says any harness has to be paired with a racing seat / roll bar combo, but this harness is specifically designed to work with the stock bmw seats and safety system.  Furthermore, it is NHTSA approved for street use, and it has some ASM mechanism to prevent submarining.  I would like to know if this harness would be allowed for PCA DEs before I sink $600 into 2 of them.

Thanks!

Todd

[ToddPhilly]

FYI:  just confirmed they are permitted for BMWCCA drivers ed events...

[Tony356993]

I know the tech form says any harness has to be paired with a racing seat / roll bar combo

If you are going to use harnesses, you must have the complete safety system for PCA. This would require the proper seats. Good luck and welcome to your new addiction.

 

[jakp993]

[size=2]Todd,

We need the Safety team to weigh in here.  However, the following is taken verbatim from our tech form.  I did not add the red highlighting.

[indent]

Seat Belts / Harnesses – Factory 3 point lap/shoulder belts meet minimum requirements of Driver Education program. [/size]Equal/similar restraint and seating is required for both driver and passenger positions. All 3 point lap/shoulder belts should be checked for proper operation and excessive wear or damage. Harness latches should operate properly and adjusters must work. The factory seat belt mounting position of early 911’s and 912’s must be lowered. Four point harnesses are not allowed!

[/indent]

[size=2]I was involved in the discussion about 4 pt harnesses at the beginning of the season.  This is not an easy topic to create rules for as there is sigificant varability in restraint design, data available, the validity of said data, etc. 

So, please understand if the answer comes back "no" even when the BMW answer is "yes".

Jack[/size]

[ToddPhilly]

jakp993 wrote:

[size=2]Todd,

We need the Safety team to weigh in here. However, the following is taken verbatim from our tech form. I did not add the red highlighting.

[indent]

Seat Belts / Harnesses – Factory 3 point lap/shoulder belts meet minimum requirements of Driver Education program. [/size]Equal/similar restraint and seating is required for both driver and passenger positions. All 3 point lap/shoulder belts should be checked for proper operation and excessive wear or damage. Harness latches should operate properly and adjusters must work. The factory seat belt mounting position of early 911’s and 912’s must be lowered. Four point harnesses are not allowed!

[/indent]

[size=2]I was involved in the discussion about 4 pt harnesses at the beginning of the season. This is not an easy topic to create rules for as there is sigificant varability in restraint design, data available, the validity of said data, etc.

So, please understand if the answer comes back "no" even when the BMW answer is "yes".

Jack[/size]

Fair enough. I guess the way I look at this particular harness is that it provides additional safety...beyond what is provided by a stock 3-pt belt. It is designed to be part of the vehicle's safety system in that it utilizes the pre-tensioners and anchors to factory safety belt mount points. It is certainly no trouble for me to use the harness for BMWCCA events, and use the stock 3-pt harness at PCA events. However, to me it just seems counterintuitive to not take advantage of the harness if available. Will keep my fingers crossed...

[jakp993]

Yeah, I can understand that it may sound counterintuitive.  But that's based on an assumption that the harness does indeed improve safety.  Schroth certainly believes that it does.  But, how does a person actually verify that claim? 

At least you know the stock 3 pt system w/ airbags had to go through a certain minimum level of testing to be approved and you can look at the results of the mandated gov't & independent insurance crash tests, consumer reports ratings, etc. to understand how the complete system compares to others.

There's just no reliable way that our safety guys, or tech facilities, can be experts in every restraint offered on the market, so we've taken what is meant to be a conservative approach.

Like I said, I'm no expert and can be overruled by Paul or Steve.  I'm just attempting to explain why something that sounds counterintuitive, may not be.

BTW - the 335i is a sweet car.  Can't wait to see how it handles the rigor of the track!

Take care,
Jack

 

[Wally]

Hi Todd, As Jack has shown you from our tech form, four point harnesses are not permitted under any circumstance.  We derive our rules from PCA National which provides our insurance for these events.  If attachment points are your concern using a five point harness, you could use a six point which may be easier to adapt to your car.  Please send me a PM if you need further information or have particular questions you need answered on this subject.

Wally

[ToddPhilly]

jakp993 wrote:

Yeah, I can understand that it may sound counterintuitive. But that's based on an assumption that the harness does indeed improve safety. Schroth certainly believes that it does. But, how does a person actually verify that claim?

At least you know the stock 3 pt system w/ airbags had to go through a certain minimum level of testing to be approved and you can look at the results of the mandated gov't & independent insurance crash tests, consumer reports ratings, etc. to understand how the complete system compares to others.

There's just no reliable way that our safety guys, or tech facilities, can be experts in every restraint offered on the market, so we've taken what is meant to be a conservative approach.

Like I said, I'm no expert and can be overruled by Paul or Steve. I'm just attempting to explain why something that sounds counterintuitive, may not be.

BTW - the 335i is a sweet car. Can't wait to see how it handles the rigor of the track!

Take care,
Jack

True. I guess that is a big assumption. The crash test simulation results Schroth shows on their website look promising, but how does one really know? I guess it's a no go with the Schroth for PCA.

[smankow]

not a no-go for Schroth, just a no-go for the 4-point Schroth.  Several of our drivers use Schroth belts (5 or 6 point).

 

steve

[ToddPhilly]

smankow wrote:

not a no-go for Schroth, just a no-go for the 4-point Schroth. Several of our drivers use Schroth belts (5 or 6 point).



steve

Steve,

Can you provide any further information on why the 4-pt harnesses are dangerous (or not as safe as factory 3-pt)? I'm just curious for my own personal benefit. If I decide to go with the Schroth 4-pt for non-PCA events, I want to feel good about my purchase. I've had a few drivers, bimmerworks in West Chester, and the tech-chair for Del Val BMWCCA recommend this particular harness as a very good compromise instead of doing a full racing seat, roll cage, 5/6pt setup. It's always good to know the other side of the argument!

Thanks!

Todd