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08-20-2008, 01:36 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-20-2008, 02:27 AM by John_Janick.)
Larry Herman wrote:
I'm not sure what your definition of "patently false" is, but how exactly does the fact that you aren't aware of an incident, or that some other factor may also present a greater risk of injury, make somthing false?
There is a reason every harness manufacturer recommends against it. There is a reason seasoned, professional drivers and instructors recommend against it (in fact, many won't get in the car with it). It doesn't matter if it's rare, or if there are other risks. The fact remains, there is still a serious safety concern with that arrangement.
If you haven't heard of it, it must not be a problem right? Regardless of what the industry and professionals say, you haven't seen it at a PCA DE (or similar), so its a non-issue?
Did you not see the pictures of the gentleman who died in a DE in the blue mini a few months ago? Roof came in, seat collapsed, fell out of the harness. Not a compressive injury, but to say that roofs don't come in...well, it's pretty clear that you haven't looked hard enough. It certainly happens. And people certainly get hurt.
Does a 5 or 6 point provide greater protection from submarining? Yes, of course it does (no where did I say they weren't safer). But that in no way, shape, or form nullifies the risk of being held upright without a harness. Again, there is a reason countless groups do not allow a harness without a bar, period.
Just to stick with your reasoning....are you aware of anyone submarining, resulting in injury, with a 4-pt belt equiped with say, AMS (schroths anit-sub system)? Again, I'm not saying its nearly as good as a 5th or 6th point...
Sorry if that came across with a bad tone...but the "I've never heard of it" so its "patentle false" kind of strikes a nerve. Do you really think everyone is just making it up?
(besides those that I am personally familiar with, I used to design harness bars at Brey-Krause during college. We would get repeated updates as to injuries related these types of occurences...afterall, we sold a lot of harness bars, many to cars without rollbars in them)
Quote:John_Janick wrote:***I can give the the phone number of someone who can no longer walk because of this very issue.
Quote:Sorry to bump an old thread...
Most Schroth 4 points have anti-submarining systems. The real damger with running a harness, any harness, without a cage is in the event of a roll-over.
In the stock belt, if the roof comes in, you are free to be pushed to either side, prevent a compression-type injury. While in a harness, you are held upright, and therefore subjected to compression injuries should the roof come in.
This has been discussed ad-nauseam on various forums and it is patently false. It may seem logical that the possibility of the roof collapsing on a roll-over is greater, but the facts do not bear that out. I am not aware of more than 1 or 2 roll-overs (in PCA or other such events) where the roof was crushed into the point of driver injury. More common are injuries from being thrown around the inside of the car. 5/6 point harnesses are safer with or without a roll bar.
I'm not sure what your definition of "patently false" is, but how exactly does the fact that you aren't aware of an incident, or that some other factor may also present a greater risk of injury, make somthing false?
There is a reason every harness manufacturer recommends against it. There is a reason seasoned, professional drivers and instructors recommend against it (in fact, many won't get in the car with it). It doesn't matter if it's rare, or if there are other risks. The fact remains, there is still a serious safety concern with that arrangement.
If you haven't heard of it, it must not be a problem right? Regardless of what the industry and professionals say, you haven't seen it at a PCA DE (or similar), so its a non-issue?
Did you not see the pictures of the gentleman who died in a DE in the blue mini a few months ago? Roof came in, seat collapsed, fell out of the harness. Not a compressive injury, but to say that roofs don't come in...well, it's pretty clear that you haven't looked hard enough. It certainly happens. And people certainly get hurt.
Does a 5 or 6 point provide greater protection from submarining? Yes, of course it does (no where did I say they weren't safer). But that in no way, shape, or form nullifies the risk of being held upright without a harness. Again, there is a reason countless groups do not allow a harness without a bar, period.
Just to stick with your reasoning....are you aware of anyone submarining, resulting in injury, with a 4-pt belt equiped with say, AMS (schroths anit-sub system)? Again, I'm not saying its nearly as good as a 5th or 6th point...
Sorry if that came across with a bad tone...but the "I've never heard of it" so its "patentle false" kind of strikes a nerve. Do you really think everyone is just making it up?
(besides those that I am personally familiar with, I used to design harness bars at Brey-Krause during college. We would get repeated updates as to injuries related these types of occurences...afterall, we sold a lot of harness bars, many to cars without rollbars in them)
02 blackish M3