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11-20-2009, 06:27 AM
AMoore wrote:
Hey guys...... If I may add to this thread. As someone that hasn't been on track in a few years I feel funny adding to these discussions, but I do have a few years of experience prior, and of course an opinion.
I’ll reply to Aaron’s question first.
I don’t think any of these cars can compare to a fully sorted track 911. I’m not saying they aren’t incredibly capable cars, all I’m saying it’s not a fair comparison to put a stock vehicle up against a sorted car.
As George later points out, once you start pushing the car closer to its (not yours) limit’s you need to look at tires, brakes and suspension changes. In the newer bigger, heavier, cars I’m guessing brakes are even more important. He then goes on to mention styles and what you want out of the car. To which I’d like to add, I think it comes down to what you want out of that car. Do you want to be the fastest car out there? Do you want the most lateral G’s in the turns…. Or do you simply want to run close with other people.
Over the years I’ve been blessed with the opportunity to drive a variety of different cars. As I sit and write that statement I wonder which one had the biggest impact. And I guess it goes back to 1997 at the Glen in a stock 993 Twin Turbo. I had a green student that had found himself with his kids out of school and pretty comfortable in life and decided to follow his dream. So he bought the Porsche. Not too far into the weekend he was turning lap times that would have put him comfortably into the black run group (if times were the controlling factor). While I’d like to think it was my instructional skills, we both knew it was the car. And the cars just keep getting better and better, which translates into faster and faster.
Over the years since, I’ve been in countless 993’s, 996’s, 996 Turbo’s, 997’s, GT2’s, GT3’s and a CGT. I’ve been in Corvette’s (C4’s, C5’s and C6’s), Aston Martin’s, Ferrari’s and a few Audi’s. But I suspect my story isn’t that far from any other instructor in our program.
I have to chuckle at Glen’s post where they go on to talk about traction control and what impact it has on F1, yet the action shots of the cars show the cars with the front tires locked up. They do mention driver aides later in the post.
Ok, where am I going with this? Jim’s right, the GTR is a great car. So is Darren, the Z06’s are incredible performance values. All of this speed and performance comes from horsepower, suspension technology and tire tech. And of course electronic controls on your car, which brings me to my point.
I don’t like them. But, there’s always a but, I want them. If your student is relying on them, he (or she) is not driving the car. If you’re (as an instructor) letting him rely on those tools then you’re not doing your job. I know that statement may not sit well with some other instructors, but it’s my opinion. As instructors in DE we aren’t there to teach racing or the fastest way around the track (but some of us do). We’re there to teach car control at it’s limit’s and if the electronic controls of the car are doing it for them then we aren’t doing our job. And, if your student doesn’t really understand that he’s using those electronics and why he’s getting in over his head then there’s big trouble down the road. Would I want to go back to those old cars prior to the electronic controls? Nope, not a chance. Would I be faster in a newer car with those devices. I think so.
Eric,
I hope you do not put the 997 into track duty and continue driving the Audi at DE’s. It may not be the quickest, fastest or most capable car out there, but it has to be close and it is without question the best looking car I’ve ever seen on track.
Quote:We often see stock lamborghini's Aston Martins and Z06 vettes driven by beginners out in green and blue run groups. I am curious as to how these cars perform in red or black compared to a fully track sorted 911.
I would like to hear from Steve H. who has now had a chance to drive a GTR on a dry track.
Hey guys...... If I may add to this thread. As someone that hasn't been on track in a few years I feel funny adding to these discussions, but I do have a few years of experience prior, and of course an opinion.
I’ll reply to Aaron’s question first.
I don’t think any of these cars can compare to a fully sorted track 911. I’m not saying they aren’t incredibly capable cars, all I’m saying it’s not a fair comparison to put a stock vehicle up against a sorted car.
As George later points out, once you start pushing the car closer to its (not yours) limit’s you need to look at tires, brakes and suspension changes. In the newer bigger, heavier, cars I’m guessing brakes are even more important. He then goes on to mention styles and what you want out of the car. To which I’d like to add, I think it comes down to what you want out of that car. Do you want to be the fastest car out there? Do you want the most lateral G’s in the turns…. Or do you simply want to run close with other people.
Over the years I’ve been blessed with the opportunity to drive a variety of different cars. As I sit and write that statement I wonder which one had the biggest impact. And I guess it goes back to 1997 at the Glen in a stock 993 Twin Turbo. I had a green student that had found himself with his kids out of school and pretty comfortable in life and decided to follow his dream. So he bought the Porsche. Not too far into the weekend he was turning lap times that would have put him comfortably into the black run group (if times were the controlling factor). While I’d like to think it was my instructional skills, we both knew it was the car. And the cars just keep getting better and better, which translates into faster and faster.
Over the years since, I’ve been in countless 993’s, 996’s, 996 Turbo’s, 997’s, GT2’s, GT3’s and a CGT. I’ve been in Corvette’s (C4’s, C5’s and C6’s), Aston Martin’s, Ferrari’s and a few Audi’s. But I suspect my story isn’t that far from any other instructor in our program.
I have to chuckle at Glen’s post where they go on to talk about traction control and what impact it has on F1, yet the action shots of the cars show the cars with the front tires locked up. They do mention driver aides later in the post.
Ok, where am I going with this? Jim’s right, the GTR is a great car. So is Darren, the Z06’s are incredible performance values. All of this speed and performance comes from horsepower, suspension technology and tire tech. And of course electronic controls on your car, which brings me to my point.
I don’t like them. But, there’s always a but, I want them. If your student is relying on them, he (or she) is not driving the car. If you’re (as an instructor) letting him rely on those tools then you’re not doing your job. I know that statement may not sit well with some other instructors, but it’s my opinion. As instructors in DE we aren’t there to teach racing or the fastest way around the track (but some of us do). We’re there to teach car control at it’s limit’s and if the electronic controls of the car are doing it for them then we aren’t doing our job. And, if your student doesn’t really understand that he’s using those electronics and why he’s getting in over his head then there’s big trouble down the road. Would I want to go back to those old cars prior to the electronic controls? Nope, not a chance. Would I be faster in a newer car with those devices. I think so.
Eric,
I hope you do not put the 997 into track duty and continue driving the Audi at DE’s. It may not be the quickest, fastest or most capable car out there, but it has to be close and it is without question the best looking car I’ve ever seen on track.
Michael Andrews