01-04-2010, 11:54 AM
hey steve!
i was up there at the glen this year at a NASA race with one of my roadrace clients, whit, in his 2006 EVO. he was racing in ST-2, (that was a super unlimited EVO in the clip), and whit ran a best of 2:04.xx. i was super happy with his performance; i only had one day to coach/ride with him (the friday practice day) and that was his first time ever at the Glen!!! i spent the rest of the weekend debriefing him after every practice/qualify/race session and making adjustments to the car.... i was super happy with his last race and laptimes on sunday -- in ST-2 trim he only has 390 whp (that EVO in the clip was a 500+ whp dude i think!); for 2010 we are going to run in ST-1, which means about another 100+ whp and about 150lbs less weight; we expect to be in the 2:00 range at the Glen and at VIR Full with the car set up like that.... (i might bring the car out to a few RTR events to shake it down; we've built up a brand new tranny with a hybrid 5th gear, and we have a completely new remote reservoir suspension on it, plus the engine is being freshened and 'strengthened'....
anyway, back to the question at hand -- what's 'fast'??? well, alot of that has to do with the car, and conditions, and the track, and and and.... but, generally speaking, if the car isn't slipping 'somewhat' (say 10 to 15% slip angles) then you probably aren't up at the limit of adhesion, and thusly aren't going as fast as you can. (this is a different story if you are driving a 'wings and things' type downforce car). right now, we are sort of discussing production type cars..... as i said, when driving the old Probenstien (lower hp, higher weight, no aero car) i am always slipping a little bit (as i said, about 10-15% on a dry track). i prefer to scrub off some speed entering the corner by allowing the car to start to rotate and slide a little sideways; this gets the car turning and lets me get back to full power sooner; it also requires 'aiming' at an imaginary apex, and 'knowing' where the car is actually going to slide to (hopefully to hit the 'real' apex and ending at the 'real' trackout! lol!). now, this is not a 'joey chitwood broad slide-o-rama'; this is a controlled slip angle, being adjusted with my right foot on the throttle and my hands unwinding the wheel..... the biggest mistake my advanced coaching clients tend to make when they are just starting to learn this technique is TOO MUCH steering wheel input. you've gotta let the car 'run' and open up the wheel and adjust the set of the car with the throttle. this goes for FWD, RWD, rear engined RWD, and AWD. every car is capable of being driven like this (perhaps not the winged formula cars; at least not so much). its how i drive my Probe, and how i drive the 'fast' Honda Civic, and certainly how i drive the Super Seven (its got a welded rear, so you have to drive it like this! it must slip, or it can't turn!).
now, how about the rain? yes, even more so! i sliiiiiiiiide in the rain when i'm going fast! the lower the grip level, the more i slip and slide when i'm going fast; you have to really know the way the car is going to slide, and stay 'ahead' of it at all times; that means knowing just about NOW that its going to rotate, and begin to feed in steering corrections just as it happens (or a micro sec before). that way, no tank slapping or over correcting will happen. in the rain (most especially on bald dry tires!) i am in a constant drift, every corner, from turn in to track out. and the 'imaginary' apex spot is moved very far into the turn, because the amount of slide and slip is much much greater. there is no feeling greater than getting this just right, and the cars will melt in your rearview mirror during a race if you are getting it 'right'. of course, there is always getting it 'wrong', which goes something like this -- 'oh sh#$! i'm opening up the wheel, unwinding it, and feathering the throttle (can't feather any more or it'll spin!) and i'm gonna run out of track out!! oh crap oh crap oh crap! i need about 2 more feet on the exit!!!! then two wheels fall off onto the (wet!) grass and then you are along for the ride..... (both feet in ! both feet in! lol!). and hopefully you just spin and get stuck in the mud. but sometimes its more of a 'wrinkly' situation (just come take a look at the old probenstien's driver side sometime. that was at VIR and i only misjudged it by about 6"!).
here's a clip of getting it right on bald tires at VIR in the rain: http://www.vimeo.com/3915803 keep watching and you will see me lap loads of cars being driven with 'no slip'. to drive at 'no slip' under those conditions you are going S-L-O-W!!!!
so most times, i'd say that it does feel 'fast' if i take out a passenger; they typically can feel the slip angle pretty well throughout their bodies, even in the dry (and its not drastic; its about 10 to 15 degrees). when i take out passengers in the wet, and they tell me they 'want to see the fast way' then they really feel it!!!! much bigger slides, that go on for a LONG time. its the fast way in the rain (and the snow, btw!
). last year i took out a rental Hyundai Sonota in the heavy rain at VIR Full, in the instructor group, with a passenger (his porsche had broken down, so he rented the car!). we ran in the top 10% of cars out there, and boy o boy did we slip and slide around the track!!! it was some of the most fun i've had driving in the rain in a LONG time.... excellent excellent practice for me, and very good learning for him (it pretty much rained that entire weekend, so he got alot of wet practice in that car!).
now, how about how i teach beginner or intermediate students? i teach them the 'zero slip' way around. i don't want them near the max grip of the car; i want them safe, and sound, and learning the line, and learning the basic skills. i alway work up to the 'tiny' slips gradually. and let them feel what it feels like, and how to counter it, in little baby steps. its the proven method in my book! as more experience comes, so does more slip... (its how i brought up George B, and it certainly has worked!).
hope everyone has had a happy new year! on to 2010!
i was up there at the glen this year at a NASA race with one of my roadrace clients, whit, in his 2006 EVO. he was racing in ST-2, (that was a super unlimited EVO in the clip), and whit ran a best of 2:04.xx. i was super happy with his performance; i only had one day to coach/ride with him (the friday practice day) and that was his first time ever at the Glen!!! i spent the rest of the weekend debriefing him after every practice/qualify/race session and making adjustments to the car.... i was super happy with his last race and laptimes on sunday -- in ST-2 trim he only has 390 whp (that EVO in the clip was a 500+ whp dude i think!); for 2010 we are going to run in ST-1, which means about another 100+ whp and about 150lbs less weight; we expect to be in the 2:00 range at the Glen and at VIR Full with the car set up like that.... (i might bring the car out to a few RTR events to shake it down; we've built up a brand new tranny with a hybrid 5th gear, and we have a completely new remote reservoir suspension on it, plus the engine is being freshened and 'strengthened'....

anyway, back to the question at hand -- what's 'fast'??? well, alot of that has to do with the car, and conditions, and the track, and and and.... but, generally speaking, if the car isn't slipping 'somewhat' (say 10 to 15% slip angles) then you probably aren't up at the limit of adhesion, and thusly aren't going as fast as you can. (this is a different story if you are driving a 'wings and things' type downforce car). right now, we are sort of discussing production type cars..... as i said, when driving the old Probenstien (lower hp, higher weight, no aero car) i am always slipping a little bit (as i said, about 10-15% on a dry track). i prefer to scrub off some speed entering the corner by allowing the car to start to rotate and slide a little sideways; this gets the car turning and lets me get back to full power sooner; it also requires 'aiming' at an imaginary apex, and 'knowing' where the car is actually going to slide to (hopefully to hit the 'real' apex and ending at the 'real' trackout! lol!). now, this is not a 'joey chitwood broad slide-o-rama'; this is a controlled slip angle, being adjusted with my right foot on the throttle and my hands unwinding the wheel..... the biggest mistake my advanced coaching clients tend to make when they are just starting to learn this technique is TOO MUCH steering wheel input. you've gotta let the car 'run' and open up the wheel and adjust the set of the car with the throttle. this goes for FWD, RWD, rear engined RWD, and AWD. every car is capable of being driven like this (perhaps not the winged formula cars; at least not so much). its how i drive my Probe, and how i drive the 'fast' Honda Civic, and certainly how i drive the Super Seven (its got a welded rear, so you have to drive it like this! it must slip, or it can't turn!).
now, how about the rain? yes, even more so! i sliiiiiiiiide in the rain when i'm going fast! the lower the grip level, the more i slip and slide when i'm going fast; you have to really know the way the car is going to slide, and stay 'ahead' of it at all times; that means knowing just about NOW that its going to rotate, and begin to feed in steering corrections just as it happens (or a micro sec before). that way, no tank slapping or over correcting will happen. in the rain (most especially on bald dry tires!) i am in a constant drift, every corner, from turn in to track out. and the 'imaginary' apex spot is moved very far into the turn, because the amount of slide and slip is much much greater. there is no feeling greater than getting this just right, and the cars will melt in your rearview mirror during a race if you are getting it 'right'. of course, there is always getting it 'wrong', which goes something like this -- 'oh sh#$! i'm opening up the wheel, unwinding it, and feathering the throttle (can't feather any more or it'll spin!) and i'm gonna run out of track out!! oh crap oh crap oh crap! i need about 2 more feet on the exit!!!! then two wheels fall off onto the (wet!) grass and then you are along for the ride..... (both feet in ! both feet in! lol!). and hopefully you just spin and get stuck in the mud. but sometimes its more of a 'wrinkly' situation (just come take a look at the old probenstien's driver side sometime. that was at VIR and i only misjudged it by about 6"!).
here's a clip of getting it right on bald tires at VIR in the rain: http://www.vimeo.com/3915803 keep watching and you will see me lap loads of cars being driven with 'no slip'. to drive at 'no slip' under those conditions you are going S-L-O-W!!!!
so most times, i'd say that it does feel 'fast' if i take out a passenger; they typically can feel the slip angle pretty well throughout their bodies, even in the dry (and its not drastic; its about 10 to 15 degrees). when i take out passengers in the wet, and they tell me they 'want to see the fast way' then they really feel it!!!! much bigger slides, that go on for a LONG time. its the fast way in the rain (and the snow, btw!

now, how about how i teach beginner or intermediate students? i teach them the 'zero slip' way around. i don't want them near the max grip of the car; i want them safe, and sound, and learning the line, and learning the basic skills. i alway work up to the 'tiny' slips gradually. and let them feel what it feels like, and how to counter it, in little baby steps. its the proven method in my book! as more experience comes, so does more slip... (its how i brought up George B, and it certainly has worked!).
hope everyone has had a happy new year! on to 2010!
Todd Reid
#11 Ford Probe GT
2011 Race Track Combat Champion
2009 NASA MA PTE Champion
2007 NASA MA PTE Champion
Need driver coaching? Need a hired driver? contact me at: http://www.reidspeedinc.com
Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, or Racer....
Wa
#11 Ford Probe GT
2011 Race Track Combat Champion
2009 NASA MA PTE Champion
2007 NASA MA PTE Champion
Need driver coaching? Need a hired driver? contact me at: http://www.reidspeedinc.com
Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, or Racer....
Wa