Little Video From Gigi . . .

[Lainey]

Lainey!  Take that nice Cayman to DeMan motorsporsts and have them work your suspension and drop a GT3 motor in it.  If you can handle it,l it will do doughnuts around a GT3 while going down the sraights at Thunderbolt.hock:[/quote]

well, geez I was just getting over my first official spin in the rain that weekend on the straight at Thunderbolt at MAW ! LOL Maybe asking your car to spin is a whole lot more fun than it doing it on its own? Next time I hope my instructor doesn't yell "we're gonna hit!!" (we didn't...) hock

Definitely going to push Little White a little harder this next year -I can't wait

[JimWirt]

Lainey I spun on the straight away also. Right before one the car turned left hard and I must of kept it going sideways for a few hundred feet. When the car finally grabbed I went over the little concrete lip on pit out and hit the tire wall backwards.  No damage to my m3. My pride was damaged though. Then I got yelled at because I had spun in 5 and didn't pit in. Now I know why people park it when it rains.

[Lainey]

Yeah I think there were quite a few casualties that weekend...

I spun after I hit the water that was ponding by the curb going under the bridge. Amazingly I went 360 degrees around then another 180, was pointing in the direction i came from and never got black flagged - nor did anyone see me! I told Myles and Wally when I went around and pitted in... Thank goodness nobody came up on me.

Would have like to end the season with a different memory, but at least Little white didn't leave on a flat bed! We were lucky

[JimWirt]

YOu mentioned tires. I'm using the r888 Toyo's. Which are pretty soft. They lasted  me about 13 auto crosses and 6 track days till the fronts corded. This included a few thousand everyday miles on the street.  I live in bucks county and can get away with alot of spirited back road driving also.

[George3]

JimWirt wrote:

Come to auto crosses we do hang the rears out all the time. Sometimes, well almost every time I do at least one 360. I think that little sideways action before the real turns is called a Scandinavian flick. George Is it faster to power slide the four wheel drive car around corners on power?

Jim- the short answer is it depends. The rule of thumb at DE's is that if it feels fast, then it's slow . . . . if it feels slow, then it's fast.

Lou- I owe you one.

[Racingswh]

JimWirt wrote:

Is it faster to power slide the four wheel drive car around corners on power?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EGoSbFtOqs

That's a reasonably fast lap in an Evo. He slides the car quite a bit.

Typically all wheel drive cars don't like to turn very much on power, they'd rather go straight, so entry speed is pretty critical as is carrying the brakes into the corner fairly deep in order to get the thing to turn. Once turned power is applied as hard as possible as long as you can keep the thing on the pavement, at least mostly.

Most often times when it feels slow it is. That works for both ends of the slip angle spectrum. When you're overdriving the car, sliding all over, lifting way out of it just to keep the wreck from flying off the track you're slow. If you're under control, squealing the tires a bit, car feels like it's on rails with very little wheel correction you're slow. It is that elusive somewhere in the middle point that very few have the feel to achieve that's fast.

There are some that are criticized for their exceptional driving skill because to some it feels like they're "on the edge" or "out of control".

[fasthonda]

hey steve!

i was up there at the glen this year at a NASA race with one of my roadrace clients, whit, in his 2006 EVO.  he was racing in ST-2, (that was a super unlimited EVO in the clip), and whit ran a best of 2:04.xx.   i was super happy with his performance;  i only had one day to coach/ride with him (the friday practice day) and that was his first time ever at the Glen!!!  i spent the rest of the weekend debriefing him after every practice/qualify/race session and making adjustments to the car....  i was super happy with his last race and laptimes on sunday -- in ST-2 trim he only has 390 whp (that EVO in the clip was a 500+ whp dude i think!);  for 2010 we are going to run in ST-1, which means about another 100+ whp and about 150lbs less weight;  we expect to be in the 2:00 range at the Glen and at VIR Full with the car set up like that.... (i might bring the car out to a few RTR events to shake it down;  we've built up a brand new tranny with a hybrid 5th gear, and we have a completely new remote reservoir suspension on it, plus the engine is being freshened and 'strengthened'.... 

anyway, back to the question at hand -- what's 'fast'???     well, alot of that has to do with the car, and conditions, and the track, and and and....   but, generally speaking, if the car isn't slipping 'somewhat' (say 10 to 15% slip angles) then you probably aren't up at the limit of adhesion, and thusly aren't going as fast as you can.  (this is a different story if you are driving a 'wings and things' type downforce car).  right now, we are sort of discussing production type cars.....   as i said, when driving the old Probenstien (lower hp, higher weight, no aero car) i am always slipping a little bit (as i said, about 10-15% on a dry track).  i prefer to scrub off some speed entering the corner by allowing the car to start to rotate and slide a little sideways;  this gets the car turning and lets me get back to full power sooner;  it also requires 'aiming' at an imaginary apex, and 'knowing' where the car is actually going to slide to (hopefully to hit the 'real' apex and ending at the 'real' trackout!  lol!).   now, this is not a 'joey chitwood broad slide-o-rama';   this is a controlled slip angle, being adjusted with my right foot on the throttle and my hands unwinding the wheel.....   the biggest mistake my advanced coaching clients tend to make when they are just starting to learn this technique is TOO MUCH steering wheel input.  you've gotta let the car 'run' and open up the wheel and adjust the set of the car with the throttle.  this goes for FWD, RWD, rear engined RWD, and AWD.  every car is capable of being driven like this (perhaps not the winged formula cars;  at least not so much).  its how i drive my Probe, and how i drive the 'fast' Honda Civic, and certainly how i drive the Super Seven (its got a welded rear, so you have to drive it like this!  it must slip, or it can't turn!).

now, how about the rain?   yes, even more so!  i sliiiiiiiiide in the rain when i'm going fast!  the lower the grip level, the more i slip and slide when i'm going fast;  you have to really know the way the car is going to slide, and stay 'ahead' of it at all times;   that means knowing just about NOW that its going to rotate, and begin to feed in steering corrections just as it happens (or a micro sec before).  that way, no tank slapping or over correcting will happen.  in the rain (most especially on bald dry tires!) i am in a constant drift, every corner, from turn in to track out.  and the 'imaginary' apex spot is moved very far into the turn, because the amount of slide and slip is much much greater.  there is no feeling greater than getting this just right, and the cars will melt in your rearview mirror during a race if you are getting it 'right'.  of course, there is always getting it 'wrong', which goes something like this -- 'oh sh#$!  i'm opening up the wheel, unwinding it, and feathering the throttle (can't feather any more or it'll spin!) and i'm gonna run out of track out!!  oh crap oh crap oh crap!  i need about 2 more feet on the exit!!!!  then two wheels fall off onto the (wet!) grass and then you are along for the ride.....  (both feet in !  both feet in!  lol!).  and hopefully you just spin and get stuck in the mud.  but sometimes its more of a 'wrinkly' situation (just come take a look at the old probenstien's driver side sometime.  that was at VIR and i only misjudged it by about 6"!).

here's a clip of getting it right on bald tires at VIR in the rain:  http://www.vimeo.com/3915803   keep watching and you will see me lap loads of cars being driven with 'no slip'.  to drive at 'no slip' under those conditions you are going S-L-O-W!!!!

so most times, i'd say that it does feel 'fast' if i take out a passenger;  they typically can feel the slip angle pretty well throughout their bodies, even in the dry (and its not drastic;  its about 10 to 15 degrees).   when i take out passengers in the wet, and they tell me they 'want to see the fast way' then they really feel it!!!!  much bigger slides, that go on for a LONG time.   its the fast way in the rain (and the snow, btw!  ).  last year i took out a rental Hyundai Sonota in the heavy rain at VIR Full, in the instructor group, with a passenger (his porsche had broken down, so he rented the car!).  we ran in the top 10% of cars out there, and boy o boy did we slip and slide around the track!!!  it was some of the most fun i've had driving in the rain in a LONG time....  excellent excellent practice for me, and very good learning for him (it pretty much rained that entire weekend, so he got alot of wet practice in that car!).

now, how about how i teach beginner or intermediate students?  i teach them the 'zero slip' way around.   i don't want them near the max grip of the car; i want them safe, and sound, and learning the line, and learning the basic skills.  i alway work up to the 'tiny' slips gradually.  and let them feel what it feels like, and how to counter it, in little baby steps.  its the proven method in my book!   as more experience comes, so does more slip...  (its how i brought up George B, and it certainly has worked!).

hope everyone has had a happy new year!  on to 2010!

 

[Racingswh]

Hi Todd!!

Nice coaching!!   Sounds like ST1 and 2 cars/drivers are putting down some very, very serious times now.   Saw the vids of the guy in his LS3 RX7.  1:59's!!  That's rolling!!   I was quite surprised though at the poor driving by some in some extremely serious machinery.  RSR's, DP cars and GT1's way more capable than how they were being driven.  They had their hands full of the RX7 and in reality shouldn't ever have seen him after the start. 

Anyway, love and enjoyed reading your description of fast.  You know how I feel about your driving.  Maybe the best in the rain and at this point probably one of the very best and most experienced amateur racers in the country.   Exaggerating??  I don't think I am.   

Hope you and your family had a great new year!!

Steve W. Hoagland

[fasthonda]

hi steve!

thanks for the kind words!  i've seen that LSx RX-7 at a few NASA NE events in the past (he wasn't racing it at that time, was still shaking it down).  that is a fast fast fast machine (think Z06 but with much less weight, better suspension and just as good aero).

thanks for the very kind words!   i'd like to see you and your machine out racing a few times in ST-2 (i'm sure you could get the power to weight down to the limit in ST-2 with that 240) for 2010?   my client in the EVO ran a 1:20.965 at summit last year at the last NASA race in ST-2 (the winner was a C5 Z06 with a 1:20.8).  the problem with the EVO is that he can't run all out at that pace on a warm dry day for the entire race;  the tires and brakes won't hold up...  he's got to get a good start, and use his head to hold the lead...

happy new year to you too!

 

[JimWirt]

Racingswh   The video of the evo. Is that car set up to under steer when entering corners? It looks like he enters corner,car initially understeers. Lifts  a Little then rotates car. Then gets back on the power. Is that the best way to have a car set up? Hopefully this isn't high jacking the thread. I'm interested because this what my 911 sc does when I enter a corner. Is that good?