stock performance at the track

[Gene]

emayer wrote:

I see the point your making and respect that opinion as it would be cool to sample such a car for a comparison. IMHO the entire DE field will be replaced by cars with ABS/ESP etc. within the next 5-10 years anyway. Also if we follow the argument further, why aren't we training with cars from the 50s and 60s when the technology was even less developed? Is there any data showing that DE drivers/ racers utilizing these technologies are undertrained?

While the safety systems have evolved immensely, the basic physics of driving a car quickly have not. In the end, with enough experience driver aptitude is likely going to be the same +/- having these systems on board. The difference is that those with the electronic safety net will presumably minimize bad spins or worse in achieving that knowledge. Case in point: Think of the DE wrecks that occurred this season. I have no hard numbers but it seems the overwhelming number occurred with cars lacking ESP/PSM etc. I'm not sure that could be explained by driver ability, experience, or aggressiveness alone.

We can see from the nice description of the GTR's dynamics there is still plenty of knowledge required to fully exploit its potential....

I think ABS and electronic stability programs can be very useful to the green driver *IF* he has the discipline to learn from them, since they can be used to get the car to the edge of its capabilities and still avoid an incident if they are overstepped. Good instruction will help tremendously in this of course. My main worry with the newer cars and green drivers is the outlandish amount of power they come with. Not even the high dollar stuff like the Porsches and GTRs, but the modern turbo Japanese stuff with 300+ that goes to 400+ with bolt ons. The BMW 135 and 335 also fall into this category.

[JoeP]

I think it is important to (a) figure out what you like about driving, and (b) actually drive any car before buying it.  In my 20's, I thought that life could not be complete unless I owned an XKE coupe.  Then, I drove one.  Yukk!

I appreciate the sophistication of the newest cars.  The speed is certainly impressive, but they feel isolated to me.  I like the intimate experience of driving older, lighter cars.  Instead of going fast, I guess I want to learn what the computer is doing for me so that I can do it myself.  My RSA is a nice compromise:  ABS, safer handling, but no power steering or driver's aides.  It would be perfect if it weighed around 2400 pounds or so. (...and had a 3.8, and maybe Big Reds, and...)

To me, "Swea Pea" looks like the perfect DE car if you are not out-and-out racing.

[JoeP]

ninjabones wrote:

Myles should have a horse and cool outfit to guard Pit Out at the next DE.

[emayer]

Gene wrote:


I think ABS and electronic stability programs can be very useful to the green driver *IF* he has the discipline to learn from them, since they can be used to get the car to the edge of its capabilities and still avoid an incident if they are overstepped.



Well said. I think that sums up the position of those of us that see the devices as a learning tool, NOT a crutch to rely upon.

[bobt993]

ABS is vital in racing not just DE.  The proper use of ABS will be felt in the steering wheel and not the pedal.  Excessive ABS will slow you down, proper use will make you much faster.  Four channel ABS provides control of inside wheel slip when your at the traction limit.  Motorsport systems allow much higher limits, but stock Porsche systems are still very good and an advantage on the track.   Bottom line don't let anyone tell you ABS is a crutch.  It is in fact a tool if you use it properly. 

[George3]

 

Bob- agreed.  If you have a car with ABS you must learn to use it.  And, you can still steer your car while in an ABS stop, not so in a lock-up without ABS.  One of the schools I attended taught students high speed steering-while-braking exercises under full ABS and going in between cones!  Amazing.  The only disadvantage that I see is Antilock brakes add system complexity, cost and weight to the race car… which is irrelevant for DE.

 

[betegh9]

JoeP wrote:

[

To me, "Swea Pea" looks like the perfect DE car if you are not out-and-out racing.

Joe P! Sweet Pea is FOR SALE, I heard. It's at Performance Automotive.

[Mike Andrews]

AMoore wrote:

We often see stock lamborghini's Aston Martins and Z06 vettes driven by beginners out in green and blue run groups. I am curious as to how these cars perform in red or black compared to a fully track sorted 911.

I would like to hear from Steve H. who has now had a chance to drive a GTR on a dry track.

Hey guys...... If I may add to this thread. As someone that hasn't been on track in a few years I feel funny adding to these discussions, but I do have a few years of experience prior, and of course an opinion.





I’ll reply to Aaron’s question first.



I don’t think any of these cars can compare to a fully sorted track 911. I’m not saying they aren’t incredibly capable cars, all I’m saying it’s not a fair comparison to put a stock vehicle up against a sorted car.









As George later points out, once you start pushing the car closer to its (not yours) limit’s you need to look at tires, brakes and suspension changes. In the newer bigger, heavier, cars I’m guessing brakes are even more important. He then goes on to mention styles and what you want out of the car. To which I’d like to add, I think it comes down to what you want out of that car. Do you want to be the fastest car out there? Do you want the most lateral G’s in the turns…. Or do you simply want to run close with other people.





Over the years I’ve been blessed with the opportunity to drive a variety of different cars. As I sit and write that statement I wonder which one had the biggest impact. And I guess it goes back to 1997 at the Glen in a stock 993 Twin Turbo. I had a green student that had found himself with his kids out of school and pretty comfortable in life and decided to follow his dream. So he bought the Porsche. Not too far into the weekend he was turning lap times that would have put him comfortably into the black run group (if times were the controlling factor). While I’d like to think it was my instructional skills, we both knew it was the car. And the cars just keep getting better and better, which translates into faster and faster.





Over the years since, I’ve been in countless 993’s, 996’s, 996 Turbo’s, 997’s, GT2’s, GT3’s and a CGT. I’ve been in Corvette’s (C4’s, C5’s and C6’s), Aston Martin’s, Ferrari’s and a few Audi’s. But I suspect my story isn’t that far from any other instructor in our program.





I have to chuckle at Glen’s post where they go on to talk about traction control and what impact it has on F1, yet the action shots of the cars show the cars with the front tires locked up. They do mention driver aides later in the post.





Ok, where am I going with this? Jim’s right, the GTR is a great car. So is Darren, the Z06’s are incredible performance values. All of this speed and performance comes from horsepower, suspension technology and tire tech. And of course electronic controls on your car, which brings me to my point.





I don’t like them. But, there’s always a but, I want them. If your student is relying on them, he (or she) is not driving the car. If you’re (as an instructor) letting him rely on those tools then you’re not doing your job. I know that statement may not sit well with some other instructors, but it’s my opinion. As instructors in DE we aren’t there to teach racing or the fastest way around the track (but some of us do). We’re there to teach car control at it’s limit’s and if the electronic controls of the car are doing it for them then we aren’t doing our job. And, if your student doesn’t really understand that he’s using those electronics and why he’s getting in over his head then there’s big trouble down the road. Would I want to go back to those old cars prior to the electronic controls? Nope, not a chance. Would I be faster in a newer car with those devices. I think so.









Eric,



I hope you do not put the 997 into track duty and continue driving the Audi at DE’s. It may not be the quickest, fastest or most capable car out there, but it has to be close and it is without question the best looking car I’ve ever seen on track.

[emayer]

Thanks for the kind words and opinion Mike.  The R8 is an amazing car both from a stylistic and performance point of view.  I lack words to describe how neutral and confidence inspiring the handling is.  Rest assured, the V10 will be making DE appearances!

I realize how truly lucky I am to be in this situation of having to consider what type of car to focus on for DE.  My belief is that cars are designed and built to be driven, not sitting collecting dust in a garage.  When I first started DE, it was with the purpose of exploring performance cars in a safe environment.  Once the bug bites though, one quickly realizes that the machine is only one part of the equation.

My reconsidering the use of the 997TT simply boils down to economics and safety equipment availability.  I love both cars and they are quite distinct as to how they get the job done.  If I am focusing on perfecting my driving skills though, I suspect I'd be more inclined to push that envelope more with the 997 knowing the repercussions may be less painful....

Quick question on the use of ABS.  Were the comments focused more on advanced DE and racing?  My impression starting out was that we should focus on threshold braking, ie. modulating input until just before ABS triggers.  If so, at what point should the student consider making the transition?  Thx all, just more food for thought while awaiting next season!....

[Mike Andrews]

Eric,

 

Glad to hear you intend to take the R10 out….

 

Not 100 percent sure of your question about ABS.

 

My statement was that we should be learning to drive our cars without relying on ABS, traction control, stability control and what ever other tools are out there.  Are these tools valuable?  Yes, most certainly.  But we should be learning how to drive the car.  And part of driving the car (in my eyes) is to get to the point where we can move (slide) the front, or the rear, of the car by throttle input or brake modulation.  In today’s world with ultra capable tires and computer designed suspensions the speed at which we are required to go to get the car to move is way up there.  And when a mistake is made it’s often at speeds too great to recover from.  This is one of the reasons skid pad is so important.

 

I’ve heard a number of people say ABS is the greatest…. You just drive up to the 200 ft mark and wail on the brake pedal.  That may get you slowed down for the turn, but that’s not learning anything.  Not to mention it’s not the best way to do it.  I believe you should start into the brakes a little slower at first to get the car to transfer its weight to the front tires and then progressively get harder and harder until just before the ABS is required.  Of course you will at times need to get into the ABS to see where that threshold is, but as a rule I don’t like to rely on ABS.  In a racing world I don’t think that’s as valid.  I can think of a few situations where you would brake very late into a turn and perhaps even to and slightly after the apex when required and you will most certainly get into the ABS once you start to turn the wheel and transfer the weight to the outside of the car.   But that’s racing and not car control.

 

Did I answer your question?