Red Flags Incident at The Glen

[bobt993]

Larry, the 993 is a nice "tweener".  A little more forgiving than an SC and provides the proper use of ABS for invoking rotation to the apex.  A technique I learned more from Chris Cervelli's coaching.    At the limit a 993 behaves pretty similar to any older 911 with a little more margin to catch the car.  I have driven alot of older 911's and feel comfortable in them after a lap or two.  Alignment is a key issue as the 993 has alot of ways to set up the car for the track/street.  I am going to put together a post next week after working with Larry on my alignment before the Glen.  Larry has really obtained alot of knowledge from his racing and DIY 911 skills on properly setting up a track car.

[larrybard]

bobt993 wrote:

. . . . I am going to put together a post next week after working with Larry on my alignment before the Glen. Larry has really obtained alot of knowledge from his racing and DIY 911 skills on properly setting up a track car.

Bob, Although I don't recall working with you on your alignment before the Glen, I do have memory lapses -- which evidently include my racing experience (I didn't realize I had established such a reputation in the green group), skills setting up a track car, etc.

Okay, you're probably referring to the "other" Larry -- Mr. Herman.

[emayer]

Guys,

Thank you kindly for the feedback and sorry for the diversion from the original post.  As someone who is growing into the sport, I seem to be approaching the point where I need to consider investing in safety gear for the TT versus purchasing an earlier track capable model.  Looks like it makes sense to budget for the latter based on your advice....  Bonus, yet another car to add to the stable!

[AMoore]

Graham wrote:

Todd, Bob,

I agree 100% with you both. I have learned more in my 89-911 than I did in the Boxsta'. The newer car was great for wizzing around and initially learning but once the 911 showed up, it was a whole new ball game.

Driving these days has to be flawless as possible to keep up with the higher hp cars and better drivers. I am finding that I can learn something each time I am out on the track and owe that to the older 911 giving me constant feed back and not suppressing any mistakes with "nannies" as Todd calls them.

Thanks for the input.

-Graham

Id did the opposite. I began DE with an 87 Carrera, a great car on which to learn. Now I have a 93 911 with ABS, but not PSM. The experience is still a raw, unassisted joy as I rarely engage the ABS as a result of driving my previous car.

[JIMK]

fasthonda wrote:

hi. i agree with bob t; a student learns more with less 'nannies'. if i had to pick the 'perfect' porsche for a first timer to show up with at a track event, it would probably be an early 944. or a late 70s thru 80s 911. it is so much easier to teach in a car like above; a car that is not mega powerful, yet responds well to driver inputs. these cars are 'good-teachable' because when a driver makes an error, the car responds and shows them that they have done wrong! as an instructor, i can say something along the lines of 'see -- you just did xyz, and the car responded with abc; just as you learned it would in class!'. plus, those older (if left mostly stock) cars are much slower, and tend not to get to the 'warp factor 8' speeds so quickly, thereby making mistakes generally less costly....

that being said, i think it is tough teaching a brand newbie in a car such as a 911 twin turbo; very much can be done wrong, yet the electronics will make it 'ok'; the car will still circulate the track at a very good clip, even when tons of mistakes are being made. its tough as an instructor, partly because i am always saying 'thats wrong; don't do that! -- no, no, no, no', yet the student sees himself/herself passing everything on the track (due to the amazing nature of the newer cars). and then, what can happen is bad, when a big enough mistake is made that the PSM/ESP/etc etc can't save the car, and it goes off in a big big way..... i really try to keep a tight leash on these newer cars, as an instructor, and always really try to impress on the students how important it is to learn to drive 'correctly'. i always try to take the time to take out a student in my car (or theirs) and show them the 'right' way around, so that they can see/feel/hear what the sensation of the 'right' way around is. this drive-around tends to strengthen my position of explaining that they are making mistakes, and that THIS way (smooth, quiet-hands, gentle inputs, smooth shifts, correct car placement and consistency) is the RIGHT way; even with all the electronics, a student can feel the difference quite easily between a car that is being driven correctly, and by-the-book, and one that is being forced to 'save' itself constantly with the nannies..... right after a short ride like that, the student typically really understands, and this in turn helps the learning process.

all the above is instantly notable in an older 911! you do it 'wrong' and the car tells you in no-uncertain terms! you do it 'right' and the car rewards with an amazing feeling! its as simple as that!

todd

PS after a student learns in a 'no frills' car; he/she might then graduate to a modern, super fast car. i would be sure that he/she will be able to extract quite a lot of performance from said new car, and would expect that he/she would most likely be less likely to have an expensive incident.....


PPS my first car ever on track was a 91 miata, no-package car! no abs, no power steering, nothing! a perfect learner car!

By the way, I'm selling my 84 - 944 if anyone is interested in learning on a car without "nannies"