Financial Shakeup this weekend

[AMoore]

Wellardmac wrote:

It's a matter of principle that the government should not be telling people what they can and cannot do with their body. I think abortion is sad and should not be used for birth control, but you absolutely should not take away the right of a woman to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Until you have walked a mile in the shoes of a pregnant woman you have no right to tell her how she should and should not feel. You have no right to tell her that she has to carry a baby to term that resulted from a rape, or is defective, or she simply is not physically able to carry to term.

You have no right to tell a woman that she has to carry a baby that she does not want. You have no right to tell her that she has to tolerate the total domination that pregnancy brings on her body. Some women choose (through their actions) to get pregnant when they did not intend. Some women have pregnancy thrust upon them. Some women are put in a position where the child that they want cannot be carried to term either because of it's health, or their own.

Actually, as Amercians, people do have a right to express their opinion regarding issues.

By the way, I have no strong opinion on this issue. I am not all knowing with respect to the issue of if and when a fetus should be afforded the inalienable rights, articulated by Locke, Jeffereson, etc., but I do find it interesting that whenever a pro choice opinion is expressed it invariably fails to address the rights of the unborn. Of course many pro choicers might believe that the unborn have no rights; however, it would make more sense to at least assert as much when addressing the issue. By the same token, pro lifers speak of the rights of the unborn without addressing the rights of the woman.

The most persuasive people are those who can support their position by attacking the position of their opposition. I never see this done as related to this issue.

I personally am not qualified to determine whether a fetus has rights, but I do know that if a pregnant woman is murdered and the fetus also dies, the assailant is charged with double murder.

[ccm911]

Now you've started it.  Just like all Pro-Lifers, you automatically assume that Pro-Choice folks are not considering the unborn.  There is a serious flaw in your argument.  We are Pro-Choice, not Pro-Abortion.

We thinking folks realize that this is a very personal decision, and the government should have no say in what a woman chooses to do with her body.  Let the individuals make the choices that are best for them.

The same should be done for recreational drug use, prostitution and gambling.  These are personal choices, which should not be subject to government infingement.

[emayer]

This issue unfortunately strikes close to home.  I am blessed to have 2 young healthy and vibrant children, but my wife and I were forced with the wrenching decision of performing a later-term abortion during her first pregnancy.  The problem was that the fetus was diagnosed with a severe cardiac issue which would have meant a limited survival even if the baby made it to term.  We agonized over this decision, but ultimately felt that the burdens of this child's suffering, and strain on my wife would be too much.

As a result, while I abhor the thought of abortion for mere social inconvenience, I do think remains the ultimate right of a woman.  Let the individual wrestle with and face the moral consequneces of their actions.  I do agree however that this topic should have no place in the political arena.  It's use serves only to distract us from the other difficult issues at hand.

[Wellardmac]

The attached image was taken on Monday morning. It is 19 weeks old and weighs around 11 ounces.

I am under no illusions that it is viable. It may move, it my have a heartbeat, it may have reflexes, but it is not a fully functioning human. It is fragile and will die given the smallest of disturbances.

These images may be cool, cute, etc., whatever you want to call them they stir emotion, but they are not viable humans - until they reach that point they have no rights. Even up until the point where this baby is born the rights of my wife come first. After it is born it has rights, but no more than you, I, or my wife.

This country has a scary rate of maternal death (as well as infant mortality) - higher than almost all other developed countries - it's a national disgrace. I have no problems stating that given a choice between losing the kid during childbirth, or losing my wife, I will chose the life of my wife over the child every single time.

[Wellardmac]

emayer wrote:

This issue unfortunately strikes close to home. I am blessed to have 2 young healthy and vibrant children, but my wife and I were forced with the wrenching decision of performing a later-term abortion during her first pregnancy. The problem was that the fetus was diagnosed with a severe cardiac issue which would have meant a limited survival even if the baby made it to term. We agonized over this decision, but ultimately felt that the burdens of this child's suffering, and strain on my wife would be too much.

As a result, while I abhor the thought of abortion for mere social inconvenience, I do think remains the ultimate right of a woman. Let the individual wrestle with and face the moral consequneces of their actions. I do agree however that this topic should have no place in the political arena. It's use serves only to distract us from the other difficult issues at hand.

Eric, I'm sorry for your loss. I know where you're coming from. We walked into the week 19 ultrasound of our twin boys ready to make the same decision after an initial screen had indicated a false positive on a birth defect. It's a horrible decision to make, but it's a personal one and noone has the right to take it away from the mother. It her decision alone and hers to live with for the rest of her life. Noone who has not lived through that kind of decision can even begin to come close to imagining the pain of having to terminate.

There are some experiences in life that noone can even come close to understanding unless they have to live through it. I held the dead body of my first born son after he died a horrible, violent, and preventable death. I challenge anyone to tell me how I feel about that.

Some people make me sick when they try to tell others how to live.

[AMoore]

ccm911 wrote:

Now you've started it. Just like all Pro-Lifers, you automatically assume that Pro-Choice folks are not considering the unborn. There is a serious flaw in your argument. We are Pro-Choice, not Pro-Abortion.

We thinking folks realize that this is a very personal decision, and the government should have no say in what a woman chooses to do with her body. Let the individuals make the choices that are best for them.

The same should be done for recreational drug use, prostitution and gambling. These are personal choices, which should not be subject to government infingement.

By stating that you are pro-choice, and not pro-abortion, are you stating that you do not need to consider the unborn? I'm not sure where you have identified your position in this regard.

My position is that I would prefer that when somone states their pro-choice or pro-life opinion, they include their position with respect to whether the unborn have rights. This not not commonly done.

By the way, please completely read a posting before responding. I am not pro-life. I, quite simply, am not qualified to form such an opinion. You will notice that I made the same point as relating to both positions.

Moreover, Individuals are not free to "make choices that are best for them," if it is at the expense of other individuals. Certainly the government should have say as to how best protect the rights of individuals from the conduct of others.

It boils down to whether one believes that a fetus has rights. Again, I do not offer an opinion on this issue, but I prefer discouse that at least addresses this issue.

[AMoore]

Wellardmac wrote:

Aaron is allowed to express his opinion, but he missed the point. He is also incorrect that those that murder pregnant women are charged with double homicide. There is no federal law to that effect and only the minority of states have laws to that effect.

The only opinion is expressed is that I believe both sides of an issue should be addressed when offering an opinion.

[Wellardmac]

AMoore wrote:

The only opinion is expressed is that I believe both sides of an issue should be addressed when offering an opinion.

Agreed and I believe that I addressed both side of the story - the one of the mother and the one of the fetus.

[emayer]

Wayne,

I cannot even fathom the depths of the loss of your young child, it is without question my worst fear, and something I'm terribly sorry you and your family had to experience.  If there can be any positive measure to assuage this tragedy, it is that your outlook on the preciousness of life (and living life to the fullest) is something you cherish with a completely different and enlightened perspective that few will understand.

I'm assuming the very little fella in the ultrasound is a pending arrival, and if so I wish you and the family congratulations and best wishes!

[AMoore]

Wellardmac wrote:

AMoore wrote:

The only opinion is expressed is that I believe both sides of an issue should be addressed when offering an opinion.

Agreed and I believe that I addressed both side of the story - the one of the mother and the one of the fetus.

nicely done, whether agreed to or not, at least you recognized and addressed the entire issue!