Lessons from other regions/sponsors?

[Hammerin Hank]

elizabeth26 wrote:

[size=2]

[size=3][size=2]C. Levels of learning: [/size]

Unconscious Incompetent (Novice) – They don’t know that they don’t know how to drive

Conscious Incompetent (Enlightened Novice) – They know they don’t know how to drive

Conscious Competent (Beginner/Intermediate) – They think about the fact that they are competent drivers

Unconscious Competent (Advanced) – They don’t think about it, they just drive competently

[/size][/size]

I pulled this from the CVR-PCA instructor handbook, and I think it is really on the money as with regard to the rungs in the ladder to being an proficient driver. I like the way things are set up in the PCA, personally. I don't think politics have anything to do with it. I'd much rather be running with cars of different speeds who are track aware... we all see each other coming, and try not to hold up anyones progress

....and when you reach level 4, you're solo. The group you run with after that should be based on how quick you/your car are. That's all I'm saying.

I'd rather not have to come in and do a hot pit fly by, due to a train of ten cars behind the poke in the bathtub holding up the show and causing everyone to brake midturn. It has little to do with awareness, on the poke's part, that ten cars are behind him. He could be M.S., it doesn't matter. It's basic car physics. To each is own

I also don't want to be the poke, pushing the snot out of my car, just to keep pace, in an attempt to get respect from other members, either. Back to the "badge of honor" thing. If I wanted to do that, I'd turn my attention to competitive racing.

PS. I retract any notion that politics pay a role in the way RTR's DE events are run. Forgive me for suggesting such a thing. We all know it's based solely on the driver's abilities....aheim. Now to serve my 10 year sentence in the green group, as penance for my previous post.

[Hammerin Hank]

elizabeth26 wrote:

I guess the better question is who have you driven with that organizes their groups in the way that you've outlined (by speed potential of the car)? I've driven with BSR a few times, and my husband has run with the PDA...

I chose my own group while attending the Schattenbaum's DE. I chose the "intermediate" group because I was running my NA car. In hindsight, I should have been in the faster group. Too much lollie gagging in the turns for my taste. Of course, having a low hp. car made for some loooong straightaway passes. If I brought the turbo car, most of it's potiential would have been wasted in that group. Definitely would have been better in the faster group. So, while it's based on a combination of car and driver, it's still mostly about relative speed at Schattenbaum. Of course, if you have zero experience, they require you in an instructed group.

BSR FATT events have two groups. Novice and intermediate/advanced. Once you get through the signoff process for that, you can run solo in their Seat time events. I was Seat-time qualified based on what they saw after my first event. For some, it takes years, if at all. I'm not saying that to brag, but to point out they're basing it on the criteria required, not a "progression" through a ranking system. Either your good enough or you're not to run solo. Pretty simple. The Seat time events usually have 3 or 4 groups depending on the sanctioned event it's butted up too. A lot of the racers use it as a practice day prior to a race weekend. So they have a street car class, and a few different classes for the race guys. While that's not the same as what I referred to earlier, it's still not based on the driver so much as it is the cars out on the track. Most of the people bring stout equipment to these events and all are pre-qualified to be on track alone. Although, the SCCA peps get a little kooky at times.

PDA worked similar to Schattenbaum, after showing them my credentials and what car I was bringing, they gave me the nod for either instructor or the hotrod group. I forget what color schemes they use. I think black was instructors. I chose instructor because they were short at the time. It was a good time but instructing, fixing my car and driving was a bit much to handle all in one day. I'm not sure I'd do that again.

While I'll admit, Schattenbaum and PDA were a bit trusting up front, they did keep an eye on me to make sure I was who I said I was. I certainly wouldn't endorse RTR to be that trusting to people they don't know. I'm sure the way RTR works, currently, is fine for most members. I'm just point out, as the theme of this thread suggests, how other orgs. are doing it and maybe something can be learned...or not.

[Phokaioglaukos]

Tony356993 wrote:

When I have been out of region the policy has been that the cones are there only on the first day. At the drivers meeting the second day it is announced that the cones are removed.

I like it!

+1

[bobt993]

Hank, 

Reading through your threads and initial argument, I see a contradiction here.  You want hp/cars being the guideline for run groups.  This may account for straight away speeds, but not corner entry/exit speeds.  Big difference as Mike said  is driver skill level.  I have come up on HP cars into say T1 at the Glen and had them brake waaaay tooo much, then hit the brakes again before turn in.

You stated you want similar performing cars, but then in another comment complain that guys were "lolly gagging in the turns" with another PCA club and you should have run in the higher group.  This supports Mike's statement of skill level.   ALMS, GAC, and Rolex run various classess at the same time.  Time diffs can be 15-20 secs a lap and yet corner speeds are much closer. 

I would suggest you try club racing, say with a spec 944.  You will get much closer car performance and the opportunity to see where guys make up time with ability. 

[Tony356993]

HH,

If you have the skills you would quickly be evaluated and placed in the appropriate group within RTR. RTR does not run like Schattenbaum. I have driven with Schattenbaum on many occasions and they view safety much differently than RTR. As you stated, you chose you own group...not safe. Schattenbaum has never asked to see my driver's license or PCA card. The tech line has never checked my brake pads or torqued a lug. (I check my car thoroughly each morning and quick check during the day) That is just not the way RTR runs a DE.  I hope you are not suggesting that the Schattenbaum way is better.

How many DE's have you done with RTR?

How many DE's have you done with Potomac PCA?

How many DE's have you done with Zone 2 PCA, Zone 1 PCA, Northern New Jersey, Metro NY?

I assure you that Schattenbaum is the exception and not the rule within PCA. They are all good people but they represent a small region in terms of members. This leads to events being filled with a large percentage on non-Schattenbaum members. These out of region folks are needed to fund the event. It is just not possible for them to know everyone's skill and car in the event. Therefore, they do things a little looser.

FATT is a different event with different goals. I've driven at FATT and they started one day before the ambulance arrived....not safe.

SCCA is racing. DE is not racing.

While we would love to have you participate in one our our events, there is no free pass. You would be evaluated by an RTR instructor and placed into an appropriate group according to your skill..................and of course you car. While this may inhibit someone with your honed skills, it allows time for a few instructors to evaluated someone and continue running safe events.

Hope to see you at the track. Stop by Summit this w/e and say YO! Car #19.

[Brian Minkin]

RTR's policy is to place people they do not know in instructed groups.  This is for everyones saftey and the fact that many will exagerate their experience just to get in,  playing their cards that the upper run groups are not filled. We will only place a person in the upper run groups with certification from their clubs cheif instructor that they are qualified to be there.  I think getting such certification is rare.

I can not remember any out of region or other car club event that I attended where I was placed in a particular run group based on the car I was driving.  I have always had to have a check out ride with an instructor to verify my driving skills regardless of stated experience. Yep, even this year as a Nationaly Certified Instructor I still needed to be checked out to run solo and get an invitation to instruct with that region.

[smankow]

Brian Minkin wrote:

Yep, even this year as a Nationaly Certified Instructor I still needed to be checked out to run solo and get an invitation to instruct with that region.

But Brian, that's probably because of the international incident that you caused with that ground hog

[Brian Minkin]

smankow wrote:

Brian Minkin wrote:

Yep, even this year as a Nationaly Certified Instructor I still needed to be checked out to run solo and get an invitation to instruct with that region.

But Brian, that's probably because of the international incident that you caused with that ground hog

Yep still picking hair off the front of the car. And Friday I will be searching for his relatives.

[Hammerin Hank]

bobt993 wrote:

Hank,

Reading through your threads and initial argument, I see a contradiction here. You want hp/cars being the guideline for run groups. This may account for straight away speeds, but not corner entry/exit speeds. Big difference as Mike said is driver skill level. I have come up on HP cars into say T1 at the Glen and had them brake waaaay tooo much, then hit the brakes again before turn in.

You stated you want similar performing cars, but then in another comment complain that guys were "lolly gagging in the turns" with another PCA club and you should have run in the higher group. This supports Mike's statement of skill level. ALMS, GAC, and Rolex run various classess at the same time. Time diffs can be 15-20 secs a lap and yet corner speeds are much closer.

I would suggest you try club racing, say with a spec 944. You will get much closer car performance and the opportunity to see where guys make up time with ability.

Argument? huh? I was merely pointing out what I see as odd with RTR's DE's.

I never said anything about hp and run groups....re-read what I wrote.

Exactly, I was in a group that wasn't quick enough for me. Which is why I shouldn't have to stay in that group. In the particular car I had, I was quicker, therefore next time I'll request the black group for that car. There's really nothing more to it than that. RTR doesn't work that way. Okay.

I never said driver skill doesn't play a part in being quick. What I said was in order to qualify to be solo you should be quick, given the potential of the car you’re in, among other criteria. Again, re-read what I wrote. Some of the folks I was out with at Schattenbaum, probably needed more instruction with regards to picking up the pace. I dunno. In any event, due to their no passing in the corner rule, I was held up. Not a big deal, but if I had my choice, (which I do) I'll choose not to be held up next time. Simple.

You're using examples of how high-end racing series operate in a comparison to a local DE event? Last time I checked, DE is not suppose to be competitive. I think there in lies part of the problem.

I've already done my share of competitve racing, although be it in karting. It's less hassle to run advanced DE's and spare myself the headaches and expense of a competitive series. 44 cup? That would mean being in a slower car...

[Hammerin Hank]

Brian Minkin wrote:

RTR's policy is to place people they do not know in instructed groups. This is for everyones saftey and the fact that many will exagerate their experience just to get in, playing their cards that the upper run groups are not filled. We will only place a person in the upper run groups with certification from their clubs cheif instructor that they are qualified to be there. I think getting such certification is rare.

I can not remember any out of region or other car club event that I attended where I was placed in a particular run group based on the car I was driving. I have always had to have a check out ride with an instructor to verify my driving skills regardless of stated experience. Yep, even this year as a Nationaly Certified Instructor I still needed to be checked out to run solo and get an invitation to instruct with that region.

I agree on the initial screening part. It's a good policy.

And if the car you took to Mid-Ohio was a stock 356?..... I think they would have viewed things differently. I guarentee you your car mattered to be able to run in the faster groups with the Ohio region. Your overall quickness mattered in the "check out ride" with the instructor, which included your car in the equation. They may not have made that a formal issue, but I'm sure the person would have viewed your placement differently if cars were blowing by you left and right. I could be wrong, though.