Financial Shakeup this weekend

[catchacab]

emayer wrote:

Wellardmac wrote:

emayer wrote:

We need to be introspective and collectively reconsider what our priorities as a society should be. Are we willing to entertain individual sacrifice of some of our freedoms, incomes, etc. in order to achieve goals that will help strengthen the country as a whole?

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Richard Jackson, Letter from that Assembly dated November 11, 1755 to the Governor of Pennsylvania.

Paranoia and isolationism do nothing to secure anyone and achieve only the effect of imprisonment of the citizenry by the government.

Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country

Whether we choose to admit this or not, we've already sacrificed our freedoms at the hands of foreign governments due financial debts, dependency on foreign oil and manufacturing, as well as commitments to longstanding military conflicts. Our founders did not envision this for our country.

When I speak of sacrifice, I do not mean personal liberty, in fact quite the oppposite. I am in support of increasing personal responsibility and less government intrusion so that the natural efficiencies of a capitalistic society can once again take root. I speak perhaps of increasing our tax burden to pay of foreign debt, limiting government spending, relaxing restrictions on energy production within our borders while encouraging energy saving measures. I would make clear that the personal debt we carry goes in the hands of foreigners, our responsibility to our country and the future of our families is to be productive and live within our means. Unlike the authors of our Constitution, present day leaders are afraid to address the hard facts as they are politically unpalatable. Meanwhile the downward spiral continues...

agreed!

[emayer]

Wayne,

Based on what I've said I can't follow what it is you disagree with in that our views appear similar.  Again, I'm advocating less government intrusion/ regulation, mandated fiscal responsibility, broad-based energy reform with a target of establishing independence and sustainability.  I believe we agree that the current leadership and candidates are unable, unwilling, or afraid to complete these tasks because to do so requires a leader to stand up and say to the American people that tough concessions will need to be made.  We are a good 20-30 years behind in dealing with these issues already.  My concern is that as time goes on and our situation becomes more dire, the emergence of even more radical political influences will occur.  We've seen this pattern before....

[emayer]

I see your point now and agree.  More accurately my statement should be:

"Ask not what society can do for you; ask what you can do for society."

It is easy for us and others to lament our leadership, but unless the average Joe becomes engaged in current events and actually votes rather than expecting the next government handout we are destined for failure.  Our politicians and media know this and continue to provide just enough fodder to the masses to keep them complacent.  Personally, I find many of our current politicians insulting in that they actually believe we trust their rhetoric and excuses.  For the most part, they are probably correct as the average voter dosen't care enough to question their statements and call them out on the facts.  As you rightly said, we are to blame and should be ashamed.

[Wellardmac]

emayer wrote:

I see your point now and agree. More accurately my statement should be:

"Ask not what society can do for you; ask what you can do for society."

It is easy for us and others to lament our leadership, but unless the average Joe becomes engaged in current events and actually votes rather than expecting the next government handout we are destined for failure. Our politicians and media know this and continue to provide just enough fodder to the masses to keep them complacent. Personally, I find many of our current politicians insulting in that they actually believe we trust their rhetoric and excuses. For the most part, they are probably correct as the average voter dosen't care enough to question their statements and call them out on the facts. As you rightly said, we are to blame and should be ashamed.

I agree 100% and is downright depressing. These guys feed the (m)asses what they want to hear, then do what they want. It astounds me why noone calls them on failing to make their actions match their words.

I looked at McCain and figured, "oh well, I dislike him, but at least we might stand a chance of getting rid of the AMT." - that's already looking like it's all hot air. Pretty bad when you can't even trust a republican to do the right thing on taxes.

Then on the other hand you have Obama who on a good day is only hot air and words (and no track record) and he can't even be consistent with his words - never mind his total lack of a track record to back up his dreams.

It's funny because I look to Europe and I see that despite the issues they have, you can generally trust them to try to follow through on their wacky words... not always, but mostly. The funny thing is that when something doesn't get done it's generally because it's unpopular with the citizenry - they scream a unified no and things don't get done... people protest, they go on strike, they visit and lobby their representatives. Here that just do nothing... they might whine about it a little... there might be a storm in a teacup in the media for 10 minutes, but generally noone is held accountable and noone seems to care.... that's the real issue... if you're apathetic, then we deserve all we get.

[ccm911]

I fully agree with the both of you.

As for the energy crisis, give me a break!!  So we should increase drilling, and that would be the answer?  Are all politicians retarded?  What little extra oil we may get will hardly make a dent in the supply, and prices will remain the same.

This is it, folks.  Stop thinking about oil.  It is so short sighted.  I just want to scream. We all need to cut back and conserve so that what we have left will be enough to get us through the development period of alternative energy sources.

For Christ's sake, World War Two gave us the Jet, the Microwave oven, canned beer!!  Yet am I to believe that in today's society there is a dearth of ingenuity? We need to forget about pitiful amounts of oil, and focus on breaking the addiction!

Sorry, but I am on a roll today.

[Wellardmac]

ccm911 wrote:

I fully agree with the both of you.

As for the energy crisis, give me a break!! So we should increase drilling, and that would be the answer? Are all politicians retarded? What little extra oil we may get will hardly make a dent in the supply, and prices will remain the same.

This is it, folks. Stop thinking about oil. It is so short sighted. I just want to scream. We all need to cut back and conserve so that what we have left will be enough to get us through the development period of alternative energy sources.

For Christ's sake, World War Two gave us the Jet, the Microwave oven, canned beer!! Yet am I to believe that in today's society there is a dearth of ingenuity? We need to forget about pitiful amounts of oil, and focus on breaking the addiction!

Sorry, but I am on a roll today.

You are on a roll.

Energy conservation is the only answer... tax "vacations" oil company taxes, increasing pumping - none of those things will even dent the price of oil - it will just push up the price and consumption further. Supply and demand, it's that simple. Push down the demand, allow supply to float and prices will come down. Energy conservation and improved efficiency are the only way to go.

[emayer]

I'm loving it ccm911!  Kep it going...hock:

The fact that prices went up 40% in the last year cannot be explained by demand alone.  There are more forces in play here.  I agree with all the statements about reducing demand, this has to be the ultimate goal.  I favor simultaneously increasing supply from within our borders as this will further shore up our independence from foreign sources (we will need petroleum is some capacity for the forseeable future).  The mere threat of impacting the market via this dual pronged approach will likely drive prices downward again in the short-term.  These guys are banking on the fact that our government can't get its act together...

[ccm911]

emayer, you are correct.  There is a lot more going on than just simple supply and demand with regards to fuel prices.

This is truly a scary moment in our Country's history.  We have politicians who are just barely smarter than "Chimps in Suits", who are completely out of touch with what is going on.  Just the mere fact that the Bush family has made their fortune on oil points to a serious conflict of interest.  How we ever elected the retarded son of a person who is so in bed with the Saudis is just beyond me.  It seems like the American public is not capable of handling the responsibility of living in a free economy.  We need more folks to get involved, so we can eradicate all of the criminals present in our government.

As for health care.....I'll take the one that the Congressmen and Senators get.  And while we are at it, we really need to get back to the discussion of term limits.  I mean we have a whore like Arlen Specter that has been at the public nipple for far too long.  He really needs to go.  And instead of lauding the Kennedy family for their long run in politics, we should be questioning why this was allowed to happen in a society that purportedly offers the opportunity of public service to everyone.

And about those floods in Iowa.  Just wait until you see the effect on food and fuel prices.

Am I being negative here?  No, just realistic.  In fact, I am really greatful for what is happening, as hopefully it will manifest itself as the impetus needed to finally clean house and get back to basics.  If everyone can just hold tight and not panic, the future should be pretty bright.  

[Wellardmac]

ccm911 wrote:

emayer, you are correct. There is a lot more going on than just simple supply and demand with regards to fuel prices.

Look again when you say that the current spike in oil prices is not demand driven. Look at global demand for oil, not US demand. Demand is up and capacity has not kept up with that demand.

There are always grand conspiracy theories, but the reality is that the global supply of oil has not grown with the demand over the last 30 years. On top of that the US (one of the large global consumers) has not made an effort to improve efficiency or cut demand. The reality is that cars on sale today consume more fuel than their counterparts of only 10 years ago did. Power generating plants are not more efficient and we did not exploit developments in alternative power sources as well as we could have.

Sam Bodman (Energy Secretary) was saying only this week that their analysis has shown that they can find no evidence of market manipulation and that our current problem is purely one of demand. He stated that supply has not increased in the last 3 years, but demand has sky-rocketed. Before I hear cries of "why should I accept the word of the government?", well, I used to work for San Bodman. He's a smart, analytical, and honorable man that has an acute attention to details. He's driven by data. His word was always good enough for me because noone who has ever worked with him has ever known him to do anything other than the right thing. If he says something is true, then I'd be very surprised if he was incorrect.

You say that this is not demand driven - I asked you to look again - I'd ask you to look no further than China, India and the Middle East - all developing at a phrenetic pace.

China is a country has a voracious appetite for raw materials (to fuel their incredible growth) has pushed up the prices of all commodities... oil, steel, food, you name it. The simple truth is that China is having problems meeting demand for all of the raw materials that they need to grow and that impacting global markets in all commodities, not just oil. It's funny because the construction industry in China is being severely impacted in their quest for raw materials - their need for construction materials is outstripping supply and as a result buildings are going up at a slower rate than they desire.

...keep on crying conspiracy if you like, but in the end you'll just be denying reality and be on par with the nut jobs at Roswell, or those that claim 9/11 was a government conspiracy.

Denying reality and sticking your head in the sand only contributes to the problem and does nothing to be a part of solving it.

[emayer]

Rather than claiming "conspiracy theories" or "sticking one's head in the sand" I would kindly ask that you consider my opinions with more scrutiny as I am precise in my wording.

What I wrote is given that supply has been constant, the 40% increase in the price of gasoline in this country over the past year cannot be explained by demand ALONE.  Frankly, to believe otherwise in my view is rather naive.  For example, there are those who claim that there has been a spike in oil futures volatility since the laws were relaxed several years ago to allow brokerage houses (those that are not direct consumers) to take part in trading.  Gasoline consumption in the US this year has decreased substantially for the first time since the oil embargo of the 1970s.

As I stated, the ultimate goal has to be an overall reduction in consumption, but to be truly effective we need to cultivate energy independence from within our borders.  This means exploiting oil, coal, wind, solar, and yes nuclear capabilities.  To think that a unilateral approach to solving this issue or a technological breakthrough "cold fusion anyone?" is imminent would be shortsighted.  In the end, it's not the current price of oil that is relevant, it is how we as a country react to this issue moving forward.  I think we can all agree that our politicians on both sides of the isle are failing presently.

One other thought:  While I respect Sam Bodman's views and do not argue that worldwide demand has increased.  Any idiot can see this.  The next questions I have to ask are as Energy Secretary, what corrective measures has he proposed?  Since these events have been in the making for several years, why are we only acting now?  Talk about having your head in the sand....