Car Control-How is it taught?

[delanckc]

I saw an episode recently where people were taught driving skills in snow.  I believe it was out in Denver or something.  I was a Porsche sponsored event.  I believe it was Supercars Exposed on the SPEED channel.  A completely covered course (not a racetrack) with high banks of snow.  Looked fun but I'm sure it was extremely expensive.

Kevin

[Brian Minkin]

delanckc wrote:

I saw an episode recently where people were taught driving skills in snow. I believe it was out in Denver or something. I was a Porsche sponsored event. I believe it was Supercars Exposed on the SPEED channel. A completely covered course (not a racetrack) with high banks of snow. Looked fun but I'm sure it was extremely expensive.

Kevin

This is what you saw on Speed,

http://www.porschedriving.com/Camp4Colorado.aspx

[delanckc]

You are spot on!  Does anyone care to sponsor me for this?  This looks like a blast.

Kevin

[Hammerin Hank]

Racingswh wrote:

Slide correction also needs to be done instinctively, subconsciously.

What are your ideas on the best way to teach car control?

The best way to make something instinctive is through repetition.

Wanna learn driving control through repetition? Sign up for a 12 hour endurance karting event and hope it rains. Did I mention they keep the slicks on the karts?

I wonder if NJMP run the karts in the rain?...and yes, I'm being serious.

[Darren]

Hammerin Hank wrote:

The best way to make something instinctive is through repetition.

Definitely, it's muscle memory and instinctual response. It's stuff that we program into the little lizard part of our brains way in the back. You can teach this stuff but the repetition is what programs it in so it doesn't have to be consciously thought about.

This is also why bad habits, esp while driving, are so hard to un-learn. Trying to fix your golf swing is a good analogy.

[Brian Minkin]

Here is a video of Patrick Long driving a 1969 911e with 225/50 tires and a 901 gearbox.  He had never driven this car before getting in it to take his turn in a twilight enduro. The video is a great lesson in car control and how it is instinctual response. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bN5Rq1siFk

 

Here is a video of Patrick driving a cup car for comparison.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-dosPiN1...re=related

[michael lang]

I remember when this video was first introduced on Pelican. The first time I watched it I was truly amazed. He got into that car and within a few laps had moved up front. Astounishing, mostly for his ability to take the car to its very limit so quickly.

 

[fasthonda]

awesome, brian!    thanks for the vid of P Long driving the vintage porsche -- really, really cool!   and that sound!!!  wow, does that motor sound good!!!  i hate to say it, but the modern engines just don't ever sound that good!!!!!!  thanks!!!

as i was watching it, i remembered back a few years when i was racing in the final race of the year, at Summit Point in the Probe;  i had been fighting some suspension issues, and to make matters worse, i was TOTALLY out of tires...  not the usual, (at least for todd!) out of tires;  i'm talking completely out -- i eventually secured some free tires, that the guy said, quote, 'were really old and dried up'.  but hey, free is free!!!!  one of my main competitors is behind me, right on my bumper, for practically the entire race;  you can't see him in the mirror, but he is back there, in an Acura Integra, stalking me:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...8949&hl=en

the car was SO freaking diabolical;  it was taking all my skill to get it around the track at any kind of pace (and trying to keep the acura behind me!)....  i pretty much am always relaxed when driving, but not this time...  i remember thinking 'i've got to relax, and get in a groove.'.  you'll see, in the clip, a very good view of the steering wheel;  you'll see me occasionally trying to stretch my fingers and relax my body....  and you'll see some fast wheel work!!!!  in order to get the car around, i had to be INCREDIBLY smooth in the braking and corner entry;  my shifts had to be spot on, and you can hear how carefully i was matching the gears and gently shifting.  the car was super nervous, and i had to concentrate mightily to 'stay in front of it';  had to make super quick corrections, and keep the power balanced perfectly, especially in T6, T7, T9, T10, and sometimes exiting T4.   hair-raising, man!  (and this is coming from me -- a guy who typically prefers a looser setup on a car!).  when i was driving like that, i was allowing my hands and legs to 'do what they wanted to do, when they wanted to do it'.  its hard to explain, especially to a student that you are coaching;  you can tell them the cause and effect, and why a driver should turn the wheel this way, and apply throttle, or feather, or xxxxxxx.  the problem arises because there just ISN'T TIME to analyze all that info, and figure out what to do!!!  you've got to KNOW what to do, and do it almost BEFORE the car does what it is doing!!!  this is kinda the essense of 'getting in front of it';  i was correcting things before they even happened, or right at the instance of it happening (you can see this illustrated so well in the P Long vid);  in my vid, you can really see this in T9 and T10;  those turns are high speed, and if you get behind there, its gonna be a big tank slapper, and probably a high speed trip into an embankment, or a roll-over....  i think i can do this because of so many hours of driving on the edge;  my brain and muscles and body seem to talk to each other without a ton of intervention by me;  things just seem to flow out and work.  and telling that to a student sounds a little bit funny, and then they look at you with a weird expression!  (thinking to themselves:  ahhhh, okaaaaay.  this guy's a little bit out there....  where's that head instructor guy so i can ask for sane instructor???     )

it also helps to drive alot of different cars;  i've driven so many cars on track that i've lost count;  gotta be way over 100 different cars.  this gives one the chance to sample all kinds of vehicle dynamics, setups, etc.  and builds a bigger 'info database' for my brain and muscles to draw from.  for example, last year Paul practically insisted that i try out his blue Z06 at VIR.  i agreed, with the one rule being that he ride along, and that i'd only do 5 or 6 laps.  the car was really great!  i settled down in it and within a lap was able to wheel it around VIR Full at a pretty good clip....  Paul noted with surprise that i really slid it around ALOT, getting on the throttle early and staying on it longer.  this was 100% true, and an astute observation.  i later told him it was because 'that's what the car wants, and needs, to go fast around here on these tires' -- he was on very worn out RA-1 tires, and to maintain a good pace, the car wanted to move and drift around alot...  (i really enjoyed driving that C5 Z06!  thanks paul!).  within the first few corners, i could tell what it wanted and needed to go quick, and we gelled and it went!!!  a couple of years ago, i had Steve's dad as a student, and steve and his father had JUST purchased the 240SX.  it was untested on the track;  they had picked it up a few weekends before.  well, his dad spun the car twice in about 10 mins, and we had some talking to do with the guys in charge (two spins and you are done, etc.).  i explained that from the passenger seat, i'd not seen my student make a mistake, and that we were going at a very low rate of speed, and that i couldn't understand why we'd spun!  had there been a spill on the track???  and that i thought the '2 spin rule' should not apply in this circumstance.  i also added that we wouldn't go out on track again til the situation was figured out -- i asked if i could take the car out in the white group, and see what was up????  so, out i went (this was Pocono North).   well, the car was a handful!   it was a 'slide or die' car -- the instant you turned in, all the ass end wanted to do was hang way way way out there!  it turned out that the car had a massive rear sway bar, and super heavy springs, among other things.  i stayed out for most of the run group, and pressed the car pretty hard.  for me, it was really fun to drive, but it was absolutely no car for a beginner student to be driving.  the driver had to be right on top of it, all the time, or it would loop out in short order (i'll add, it was easier to drive than my Probe was in the above clip!  ha ha!).  driving lots of different cars has given me the opportunity to log all those experiences into my brain/body database;  since so much of the driving is sort of 'automatic' to me now, it really frees up my brain to work on important problems when on track, or racing, such as:  how am i going to keep this guy behind me???  or, as i follow around behind a competitor:  what are his weaknesses?  how can i capitalize on them?  where is the best place for me to pounce?  etc etc.   i've only got so much computing power upstairs to work with, and i want to spend it on those types of things, not 'i'm entering a turn and the car is doing this and now what am i going to do to correct it?'.  if we can figure out a program of sorts, that allows students to gain this critical experience and practice, without hurting their cars in the process (very important!) then we would be way ahead of the game...  whether this is more autocross, more skid pad training, or a special skills seminar held on an empty lot (slalom, threshold braking, lane changine maneuvers, etc);  i don't know the answer for sure, but i'm glad we are talking about it!!!!

lots of folks won't race or drive when the car isn't 'perfect', or the conditions aren't perfect.  i've raced/driven so many times when it was FAR from perfect that i've lost count!  that kind of experience is one of the things that i think helps me to be a good/better driver...  when the car is good (as it is now) it is easy to go fast, and win races -- the end of last year it was seven wins in a row, and the track record at Summit!  i bet P Long has driven in many many enduros, where the car was hurt, or messed up, or terrible weather, but he had to drive it as fast as was possible.  that kind of thing builds skills, and just watch those vid clips of him driving for proof!!!!

anyway, as i was watching the P Long vid, it reminded me immediately of that race;  Long is much better than i am, and is so 'in front of it' the entire time!  awesome!

todd

PS  i was SO relieved when the white flag came out for my race!!!  

[opus]

Here is my favorite driving video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-zbfdPfRg

It clearly shows the driver's feet, the tachometer and speedometer, the driver's hands and the track.  I just wish I could drive like that. 

[Brian Minkin]

Tod,

Great video.  Thanks for posting.

I will never be the driver you are as racing is not part of my driving career but I do appreciate and have used instinctive car control skill.

I remember about a year ago running at Sebring and taking another RTR instructor out with me who was teaching me the track. It was raining sort of a fine mist and the track did not seem wet enough to switch to rains so I was running Hoosiers.  The car seemed fine and about half way through the session out of the blue the car starts to rotate the rear. The next moment the other instructor riding with me says "great save" and we continued to lap Sebring until the session ended.  When we got back I reflected on that moment and could not say what I had done to save it. That night I looked at video and I see that my hands snapped the wheel in the direction of the slide and the throttle modulated slightly. It just came from the subconscious part of my brain the instant the car started to slide. 

I have also experienced a front sway breaking in the middle of a session and the total handling of the car instantly changing. Back end stepping out and dancing under hard braking. Very challenging to keep the car going forward but again feeling what the car is doing and having a subconscious response kept the car on the track.

Driving from the subconscious is something that develops with lot of seat time and experience.  Going back to the original focus of this thread I do agree that some sort of car control clinic would benefit all our students since this is where subconscious driving begins to be programmed in the brain. Once my but and brain started to work together I became much more relaxed and was able to focus on becoming faster and breaking bad habits.

Even with students with some natural talent (I have none of that) I still need to keep them safe as an instructor because the mistakes they make are often bigger then that talent will save. Anything we can do to get our students in touch with the seat of their pants will make them better and safer high speed drivers.