GT3 VS Z06

[catchacab]

Tony356993 wrote:

I have also driven with very good blue students that did not have the proper set up on their car and it prevented them from "keeping up with the Jone's"

What is the best thing to do with these students?

1. Keep them in Blue with an instructor in the car.

2. Give them to option to run solo in the Blue group (signed off to White with the understanding they will run in Blue until their car is set up better).

[Tony356993]

What is the best thing to do with these students? 

1. Keep them in Blue with an instructor in the car.

2. Give them to option to run solo in the Blue group (signed off to White with the understanding they will run in Blue until their car is set up better).

 

Good ?

I think it would depend on the driver and the situation. If they had the tools, seat time, correct mental state, and the skills for white but were in the middle of the blue group with speed, I would consult the track chair or a more tenured instructor for advice. MHO is that if we are mid pack in the blue group, the white group would not be a lot of fun. OTOH, some additional solo time might help this student. Perhaps a solo band after the 1st day or so of an event and stay in blue. Perhaps I would ask the student if I could drive a few laps with them in the white group in their car and see if it would help me help the student with a bit more speed.

Good ?

[stentech1]

It is important for the drivers in the white run group to have instructors to be in the car with them at least once per de event. It is important for the white group driver to realize that there is still allot to gain from having an instructor in the car. But this is often an under utilized privilege that the white group does not utilize. So Instructors should be proactive and still help in the skill building process by offering their assistance to people in the white group, further improving their technique and aid in their progression to black.

[Brian Minkin]

smankow wrote:

last time I checked, the F1 cars all have traction control. So, I guess that none of them can drive and simply use crutches.

Rolex Daytona Prototype cars have traction control elimanted from the ECU for 2007 series.

[Mark GT2]

Wow.  I just signed up for this forum - and this is my first post.  Based on the comments above I almost didn't. 

Technology, yes it's here and it will continue to improve.  Back in the 1970's I guarantee you that some of those people driving cars from the 1950's were saying that the new car drivers really didn't have a feel for the car and the road and that the technology was making them better than they really are.   Let's face it - I'm already bummed that I don't have a cup car sequential shifter and that I have to use my clutch to upshift......damn that technology........it's helping that other guy drive.......if only he had my "older" car and had to lift during upshifts.....he'd be so much slower.  Let's see now - power steering - makes it easier to steer a much heavier car.  PSM - I've used it with/without being on -  even at high speeds it makes virtually no difference (it's only meant to save you if you really screw up and "almost" never engages if you're driving properly).  ABS - I probably engage it as often as the NON ABS car drivers - the difference is I never end up flat spotting a tire :-)

I wonder what they'll say in the forums of 2020........who cares....are we having fun?

[Phokaioglaukos]

Somehow I missed this thread. Last year at Zone 1 PCA at WGI I was in white, along with a few other GT3s, some 356s and one Cayenne Turbo S (450 HP?). Coming through the outer loop I caught the Cayenne during one session and watched it crab walk through Turn 6. The truck literally jerked around the turn fitfully, as though the driver were steering by pulling reins, but also with the reins connected to the rear wheels. I concluded that the PSM was correcting big time. Happily the driver gave me a quick point by and that was that. After the event ended I chatted with the driver. He was very proud of the electronics on his truck and his ability to keep up with many "faster" cars. I walked away wondering if the truck could steer for him, too, he'd think that even better. Nice guy, just not out there to do what I was trying to do. I also wondered if he could even see a 356 coming up on him, or whether it was just too small.

We drive what we have. I like not having PSM intrude when I hit the brakes, but I would learn to drive with that effect if my car had PSM. My next car will probably not have ABS, but who knows, maybe it'll have ABS and paddle shifters too?

[jakp993]

Hey, this is a cool thread!  Lot's of interesting subjects all mashed into a non-intuitive topic title

Lemme add my $.02 on a couple of the topics.  Probably all been said before, but that won't stop me.

Electronic Aids:  Almost all of the modern cars we see at the track have them, we aren't going to influence manufacturers to delete them, so let's deal with them.  Do I think I'm a better driver cause I learned without them - yes.  However, I say that's irrelevant cause these driver aids are on today's cars and our students need to learn with their cars.  We tell folks to come to our DE pgm to "learn to drive your car like it was designed to be driven".  Today's cars were designed to be driven with electronic aids.  Our DE pgm, and we instructors, need to change our instruction techniques to recognize these driver aids exist.  Telling a student to turn it off isn't the answer.  In fact, we have guidance from PCA National that it is forbidden for an instructor to do so.  Just think about it for 2 seconds from a liability standpoint and it's perfectly clear.  This is one of the major reasons we have re-instated the skid-pad as an instructional tool this year.  And, unlike previous years, it will be required.  It will be one of a student's assigned run sessions.  Does that mean giving up "track" time - yes.  Does that mean getting your car dirty - probably.  Does that mean giving a student the opportunity to see what happens when PSM can't compensate for a mistake - YOU BET.

Promotion criteria:  This is always a hot topic.  Several of you on this forum personally know I am a very conservative "promoter".  There are other equally or better qualified instructors that are more liberal in their approach.  Who's right?  Both...  Why???  Because we, as an instructor core, have not spent enough time agreeing upon standard promotion criteria.  Let's face it, we will never achieve total consistency as there will always be judgement involved.  However, I think the gap is bigger than it should be today so this is a topic we will discuss at length in our upcoming instructor clinic.  The goal is to walk away with an agreed upon standard set of criteria of when to promote someone, and when not to.

OK - I'm off my soapbox

Jack

[betegh9]

I have been in the white run group as far as I can remember (I get my senior moments too!). I also drive a car that is older than many club members. I don't care to move up to black or red. I have seen guys move from green to red in the course of a season. Some are or were really good drivers, and that may be OK for a gifted few, but others.........I wouldn't let them get within 100 feet of my car at a track event. I guess that it is an EGO to brag about.
White run group is by far the TOP GROUP.....in terms of FEAR FACTOR. They scare the S--T OUT OF ME. They are still too GREEN (NO PUN INTENDED) to know or remember track etiquette, they drive wrecklessly and almost NEVER look in their rear view mirrors.
There are a lot of things that a driver needs to focus on, and many of the NEW solo drivers think that since they were signed off, that they know everything NOW. In fact, many white drivers don't even know where the flag stations are if they are asked, after a session.
A SOLO driver should not only be smooth, know the line, shift well, be fast, blah! Blah! BLAH!, aware of everything in his (her) car: PMS, Oh sorry! PSM, ABS, ETC, but HE (SHE) needs to be MOST aware of everything around him, OUTSIDE HIS (her) WONDERFULL CAR.

Please tell me: I'm wrong.

[Mike Andrews]

betegh9 wrote:

I have been in the white run group as far as I can remember (I get my senior moments too!). I also drive a car that is older than many club members. I don't care to move up to black or red. I have seen guys move from green to red in the course of a season. Some are or were really good drivers, and that may be OK for a gifted few, but others.........I wouldn't let them get within 100 feet of my car at a track event. I guess that it is an EGO to brag about.
White run group is by far the TOP GROUP.....in terms of FEAR FACTOR. They scare the S--T OUT OF ME. They are still too GREEN (NO PUN INTENDED) to know or remember track etiquette, they drive wrecklessly and almost NEVER look in their rear view mirrors.
There are a lot of things that a driver needs to focus on, and many of the NEW solo drivers think that since they were signed off, that they know everything NOW. In fact, many white drivers don't even know where the flag stations are if they are asked, after a session.
A SOLO driver should not only be smooth, know the line, shift well, be fast, blah! Blah! BLAH!, aware of everything in his (her) car: PMS, Oh sorry! PSM, ABS, ETC, but HE (SHE) needs to be MOST aware of everything around him, OUTSIDE HIS (her) WONDERFULL CAR.

Please tell me: I'm wrong.

Nick,



Ok, you're wrong!



You are right about you comments that a white run group driver should be aware of their surroundings. But I'm somewhat concerned about your comments that I've put in bold. Perhaps you should review who you are driving with. I know you aren't talking about RTR.

[Larry Herman]

betegh9 wrote:

Please tell me: I'm wrong.

Ok Nick, you're wrong. Maybe quite a while back some people got promoted way too quickly for whatever reason, but that does not happen any more. And no-one goes from Green (or Blue, or even White) to Red in one season. From Jim Z, to Brian and now to Jack, the CI mentality has been getting more conservative in our club, and for good reason, the cars are getting more outrageous.

So come back out again. We'll keep you in white until we're certain that your ready for Black.