Financial Shakeup this weekend

[nplenzick]

emayer wrote:

"We played schoolyard bully for no reason, other than to prove a point."

Agreed. The issue is whether the point was worth making at the supposed wrath of our Allies. Growing up I used to hear constant complaining about the military and nuclear presence in Germany, that is until they packed up and left. Now they are missed for their economic and security contributions. Many other European countries have to tread carefully on the subject of Muslim extremism as they make up a substantial portion of their constituency. There is more to the story here than is outwardly apparant.

That said, we should come out and call the Iraq invasion for what it was: A pre-emptive strike against Islamic extremism (both symbolic and real), a viable target to draw their attention from further attacks and our soil (successful thus far), a perfect geographic location from which to base operations in neighboring countries. I am no hawk, but I can see the rationalization for this venture. Our issue as a country is how the campaign was managed in the early phases, and we are paying the price for this now.

As for the cost of the war, we should be forthright about our expectations. I would have no issue with the administration saying that they would fund reconstruction, infrastructure, and military protection provided that the costs are eventually offset by a reduction in the price of Iraqi oil. The mere discussion of this would likely destabilize OPEC and further drive prices down.

From a historical and philisophical point, would the cost to America have been as great if we had taken a more proactive approach in dealing with Kaiser Wilhelm or Adolf Hitler?

Just a quick check on US military bases shows eighteen in Germany so I do not know what you are referring to. If they closed a few that's just too bad as one was closed a few years back near me and another is about to be closed ( Willow Grove NAS).

Sorry your theory just doesn't hold water, comparing WWI and WW2 to whats going on in Iraq. It's more like comparing apples to oranges. In both World Wars we were drawn into because our allies were attacked by large armies back by country's who were trying to build an empire. What we did in Iraq was invade a country and try to force our way of life (democracy) on them. It's just not going to work. A better comparison would be the Vietnam war.......and we know how that turned out, you think we would have learned a lesson!

The idea that Iraqs oil is somehow going to pay for this war is laughable at best. What makes you think that if and when they ever resume their capable oil production they'll sell it to us cheaper! It will go into the world market which means most will go to China.

My analogy of the US is like a well trained boxer swinging wildly in the ring instead of taking your time and planing a few selected punches for a knock out.

[emayer]

nplenzick wrote:

emayer wrote:

Just a quick check on US military bases shows eighteen in Germany so I do not know what you are referring to. If they closed a few that's just too bad as one was closed a few years back near me and another is about to be closed ( Willow Grove NAS).

Sorry your theory just doesn't hold water, comparing WWI and WW2 to whats going on in Iraq. It's more like comparing apples to oranges. In both World Wars we were drawn into because our allies were attacked by large armies back by country's who were trying to build an empire. What we did in Iraq was invade a country and try to force our way of life (democracy) on them. It's just not going to work. A better comparison would be the Vietnam war.......and we know how that turned out, you think we would have learned a lesson!

The idea that Iraqs oil is somehow going to pay for this war is laughable at best. What makes you think that if and when they ever resume their capable oil production they'll sell it to us cheaper! It will go into the world market which means most will go to China.

My analogy of the US is like a well trained boxer swinging wildly in the ring instead of taking your time and planing a few selected punches for a knock out.

Just playing Devils' advocate here....

No question there is still some US presence in Germany but I would compare both the number of bases and personel to that of 10 years ago. Unquestionably there has been a massive reduction. (Not a bad thing for the US by the way).

You may recall that the US became fully engaged in protecting our Alllies YEARS after both World Wars were underway. I made this point only to indicate that we potentially could have saved lives and financial cost if we had taken a more proactive approach earlier on. "Empire" building did not occur overnight and without our knowledge of its imminent danger. As for Vietnam, were the South Vietnamese not our Allies worthy of protection? Do you think our loss there was a function of the military campaign or political ineptitude here at home?

As for demanding reparation for the cost of the campaign, this kind of activity has been ongoing since the advent of warfare. I do not think the Iraqis should be on the line fully as they did not initiate the war, but by the same token I don't think it's unreasonable to have payback for assiting in infrastructure development, military training, etc. You may recall the infamous UN managed oil for food debacle that benefitted our "Allies" and lined Saddam's pockets at the expense of his people. Do you think our country can do no better than this?

No argument that our true intentions for invading Iraq was a ruse. It remains to be seen what benefits will arise from this, much will not be quanitifiable. It behooves us to do the right thing moving forward to help Iraq establish independence and refocus our efforts here at home as we adroitly discussed earlier.

[nplenzick]

emayer wrote:

nplenzick wrote:

emayer wrote:

Just a quick check on US military bases shows eighteen in Germany so I do not know what you are referring to. If they closed a few that's just too bad as one was closed a few years back near me and another is about to be closed ( Willow Grove NAS).

Sorry your theory just doesn't hold water, comparing WWI and WW2 to whats going on in Iraq. It's more like comparing apples to oranges. In both World Wars we were drawn into because our allies were attacked by large armies back by country's who were trying to build an empire. What we did in Iraq was invade a country and try to force our way of life (democracy) on them. It's just not going to work. A better comparison would be the Vietnam war.......and we know how that turned out, you think we would have learned a lesson!

The idea that Iraqs oil is somehow going to pay for this war is laughable at best. What makes you think that if and when they ever resume their capable oil production they'll sell it to us cheaper! It will go into the world market which means most will go to China.

My analogy of the US is like a well trained boxer swinging wildly in the ring instead of taking your time and planing a few selected punches for a knock out.

Just playing Devils' advocate here....

No question there is still some US presence in Germany but I would compare both the number of bases and personel to that of 10 years ago. Unquestionably there has been a massive reduction. (Not a bad thing for the US by the way).

You may recall that the US became fully engaged in protecting our Alllies YEARS after both World Wars were underway. I made this point only to indicate that we potentially could have saved lives and financial cost if we had taken a more proactive approach earlier on. "Empire" building did not occur overnight and without our knowledge of its imminent danger. As for Vietnam, were the South Vietnamese not our Allies worthy of protection? Do you think our loss there was a function of the military campaign or political ineptitude here at home?

As for demanding reparation for the cost of the campaign, this kind of activity has been ongoing since the advent of warfare. I do not think the Iraqis should be on the line fully as they did not initiate the war, but by the same token I don't think it's unreasonable to have payback for assiting in infrastructure development, military training, etc. You may recall the infamous UN managed oil for food debacle that benefitted our "Allies" and lined Saddam's pockets at the expense of his people. Do you think our country can do no better than this?

No argument that our true intentions for invading Iraq was a ruse. It remains to be seen what benefits will arise from this, much will not be quanitifiable. It behooves us to do the right thing moving forward to help Iraq establish independence and refocus our efforts here at home as we adroitly discussed earlier.

Our military bases have closed around the world and many here in the US. So would you rather have bases shut down in Germany or here?

Vietnam our Allie? I remember Vietnam being a very corrupt country which is how Communism took a foot hold when we came in after the French and drew a line in the sand. We lost tens of thousands of solderers for what? To spread democracy? One of the reasons for lack of public support was there was a draft at the time. If there was one right now there would be people demonstrating in the streets just like in the late 60's. I remember it all to well.......not a pretty time in our country. Let me ask you this, why haven't we invaded Cuba? There only 80 miles of the coast. Why don't we invade North Korea, we know they have nuclear weapons. Whats stopping us? Let's use our brain for a while instead of our fists. Economic sanctions work not over night but they do work.

Bin lidien is laughing in his cave somewhere, I suspect we did exactly what he hoped we would do. We're in the middle of a civil war. In case you didn't know some of our troops are on their third tour. It's the smallest army we have had since 1939. Even John McCane won't keep the troops there long, he may say he will now but if elected he'll have most out within two years.

Demanding reparation is a pipe dream, just tonight on the evening news was reporting that a third to half of Iraqs oil is being stolen.

[emayer]

Wellardmac wrote:

Good discussion.

Just one interjection - Vietnam is also not a fair comparison to Iraq and supporting the South Vietnamese government was also not a worthy goal. The South Vietnamese government was a puppet regime supported by the US, but not supported by it's citizens. Given the chance the Vietnamese population would have voted for Ho Chi Minh and converted to a communist state. We went into Vietnam because of fears over Chinese expansionism and the equally flawed Domino Theory.

Communism (despite the historical hatred of it by the US) works for some countries and not others. The Vietnamese wanted to be under a Communist regime and we didn't want them to have their own way because we were (and still are) afraid of communism. After all this time I really haven't figured out why the US is so afraid of communism, after-all, it's just another socioeconomic system. There have been many studies that have proclaimed Capitalism to be equally flawed. The only thing I can put it down to is the fear generated in the 50's. It's really is quite quaint to see the fear that the US has over Cuba... it's an attitude that is really outdated and not shared with the rest of the world. It's even more amusing when you consider that Cubans have a significantly better healthcare system than the US. Regardless, I do always wonder why US citizens aren't appalled that anyone on a non-US passport can visit Cuba, but not us. Very strange.

Agreed! Please keep in mind that I'm not directly comparing the indications/ necessity of our involvement in Vietnam or Iraq, merely that if we are to learn anything from a historical persepective, it is that politcs undermines our military objectives and long-term goals. We are seeing this yet again. To think that the Iraqi situation can be resolved in 1 or 2 years is ignorant. I can assure you that no political candidate will achieve any substantial withdrawl of troops in this interval. War never is or ever should be a popular choice. Our discourse as a nation should be to accept the fact that this is a long-term venture, and work towards minimizing the economic impact and threat to our soldiers on the ground.

As for the statement that Cuba's healthcare system is vastly superior to ours: I would hope that your impressions are based on more than Michaael Moore's interpretation of the facts! You may recall that Fidel himself had to bring in surgeons and other ancillary staff from Spain to manage his care. Is their system too good for him? Spend one day in an ED ward anywhere near an International airport and you'll see how people throughout the world magically appear on our doorstep. I don't see them making the trip to Cuba for superior care. Again, one must delve into the statistics further to see that variances in mortality etc. in this country are largely attributable to the heterogeneity of our population, social differences in the use of and access to healthcare, and geography which makes it extremely difficult in many parts of the nation for people to have ready access to these specialized services.

I never understood our relations with Cuba either. If we really wanted to undermine Castro I would think it would make more sense to have the free flow of goods and Americans visiting that country.

[ccm911]

On paper, communism looks pretty good.  The problem is, that the dictatorship never dissolves, as the theory was explained back in history classes.

The real problem facing us right now is Religion.  It is the absolute root of all evil! We have a bunch of Southern Hayseeds here in America trying to force feed us normal folks their twisted version of Biblical law.  We have Pro-Lifers just going nuts, blowing up clinics(Eric Rudolph) and murdering innocent folks, all in the name of Religion.  We have a bunch of awful Muslims doing the same in the name of Allah.  If we could just stamp out religion for once and for all, we could probably have a much more peaceful world.  I am all for folks expressing their beliefs, but at this point it has gone too far, and the extremists must be reeled in.  This goes for the Religious Right, here in America, as well as Muslim terrorists in the Middle East.  Get rid of religion, and the world would be a much better place.

I hate to sound extreme, but it has gone way too far, and is now impinging on my (and your) freedom of the pursuit of Happiness.

[nplenzick]

ccm911 wrote:

On paper, communism looks pretty good. The problem is, that the dictatorship never dissolves, as the theory was explained back in history classes.

The real problem facing us right now is Religion. It is the absolute root of all evil! We have a bunch of Southern Hayseeds here in America trying to force feed us normal folks their twisted version of Biblical law. We have Pro-Lifers just going nuts, blowing up clinics(Eric Rudolph) and murdering innocent folks, all in the name of Religion. We have a bunch of awful Muslims doing the same in the name of Allah. If we could just stamp out religion for once and for all, we could probably have a much more peaceful world. I am all for folks expressing their beliefs, but at this point it has gone too far, and the extremists must be reeled in. This goes for the Religious Right, here in America, as well as Muslim terrorists in the Middle East. Get rid of religion, and the world would be a much better place.
I hate to sound extreme, but it has gone way too far, and is now impinging on my (and your) freedom of the pursuit of Happiness.

I couldn't agree more Chris........it's one of the reasons I left the Republican party. When I watch the Republican convention when GW was first nominated it made a sicking feel in my stomach. I felt as though we were returning to the Victorian age. The only way religion can go away is by a persons own free will which can only be accomplished by better understanding of science thru education.

On another note I just started reading Barack's book "The Audacity of Hope". Very interesting. I'm in the beginning pages, he's trying to explain where all these "hard-liners" on both sides have come from. You might want to pick up a copy for yourself.

[ccm911]

I have a feeling that I may have to.  I am grudgingly turning over to him, as we only see "business as usual" with Hillary.  It may be time to break this "Bush-Clinton" stranglehold on our nation.

But then again, if Bill was running, I would vote or him in the blink of an eye.

[ccm911]

I have a feeling that I may have to.  I am grudgingly turning over to him, as we only see "business as usual" with Hillary.  It may be time to break this "Bush-Clinton" stranglehold on our nation.

But then again, if Bill was running, I would vote or him in the blink of an eye.

[Wellardmac]

emayer wrote:

Agreed! Please keep in mind that I'm not directly comparing the indications/ necessity of our involvement in Vietnam or Iraq, merely that if we are to learn anything from a historical persepective, it is that politcs undermines our military objectives and long-term goals. We are seeing this yet again. To think that the Iraqi situation can be resolved in 1 or 2 years is ignorant. I can assure you that no political candidate will achieve any substantial withdrawl of troops in this interval. War never is or ever should be a popular choice. Our discourse as a nation should be to accept the fact that this is a long-term venture, and work towards minimizing the economic impact and threat to our soldiers on the ground.

As for the statement that Cuba's healthcare system is vastly superior to ours: I would hope that your impressions are based on more than Michaael Moore's interpretation of the facts! You may recall that Fidel himself had to bring in surgeons and other ancillary staff from Spain to manage his care. Is their system too good for him? Spend one day in an ED ward anywhere near an International airport and you'll see how people throughout the world magically appear on our doorstep. I don't see them making the trip to Cuba for superior care. Again, one must delve into the statistics further to see that variances in mortality etc. in this country are largely attributable to the heterogeneity of our population, social differences in the use of and access to healthcare, and geography which makes it extremely difficult in many parts of the nation for people to have ready access to these specialized services.

I never understood our relations with Cuba either. If we really wanted to undermine Castro I would think it would make more sense to have the free flow of goods and Americans visiting that country.

Agreed pre-invasion planning was less realistic than Alice in Wonderland. Anyone who tried to be realistic was condemned as being negative or unrealistic.

As for by comment on Cuban healthcare - apologies I should have been more specific. They have access to modern medicine and treatments and it's free. That in my definition made it "better" for the average person. Their access to cutting edge research and research based therapies is inferior. I could quote specific mortality rates, but that's so influenced by lifestyle that it's hardly fair to say that they have lower infant mortality rates, cancer deaths, etc. because some of it is just due to the fact that they're better at preventative medicine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/12/opinion/12kris.html

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/53087/

Here's an article from the Guardian newspaper from 2000 on how the UK was seeking to learn from Cuba's first class (and lower cost healthcare) system.

http://www2.cruzio.com/~yogi/health.htm

and another

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/12/film.health

It's not a secret (outside the US) that Cuba has great healthcare. A little embarrassing?

I'm with you on the way to induce reform in Cuba - free flow of goods and ideas is the fastest way for cultural change. Here's the interesting thing though. The rest of the world has free access to visit Cuba, but most are afraid of the negative cultural impact when Americans are allowed to visit. Cuba has a unique culture and many are fearing that it will be lost when McDonalds, Starbucks, etc have the access to set up shop on every corner. I tend to agree, that will be a sad day.

[Wellardmac]

ccm911 wrote:

On paper, communism looks pretty good. The problem is, that the dictatorship never dissolves, as the theory was explained back in history classes.

The real problem facing us right now is Religion. It is the absolute root of all evil! We have a bunch of Southern Hayseeds here in America trying to force feed us normal folks their twisted version of Biblical law. We have Pro-Lifers just going nuts, blowing up clinics(Eric Rudolph) and murdering innocent folks, all in the name of Religion. We have a bunch of awful Muslims doing the same in the name of Allah. If we could just stamp out religion for once and for all, we could probably have a much more peaceful world. I am all for folks expressing their beliefs, but at this point it has gone too far, and the extremists must be reeled in. This goes for the Religious Right, here in America, as well as Muslim terrorists in the Middle East. Get rid of religion, and the world would be a much better place.

I hate to sound extreme, but it has gone way too far, and is now impinging on my (and your) freedom of the pursuit of Happiness.

I agree with you 100%. There is little religious tolerance in this country. A little amusing and ironic considering that we were supposedly founded on religious tolerance (not true, but that's what they try to teach in schools).

I'm tired of religion being forced down my throat. I'm tired of candidates being told that, people won't vote for you because you're Catholic or Mormon. Religion is irrelevant for if you're running for President, as you're supposed to be running the country without regard for religion. As a public official you should not be letting your religion influence your decisions.... I wish that were true, but that's the way that it's supposed to be.

Religion causes most of the world's wars. Religious discord results in most disagreement and discontent. Religion is currently influencing public policy and I'm sorry, but that's the last place it should be. I'm not having a religious ideology influence what my kids are taught in school or what I can or cannot do with my body (abortion, stem cell research, etc.). It's backwards and restrictive of freedoms.

Too often we're being told by the evangelicals what we can and cannot do based upon their belief system. The sooner that the citizens of this country reclaim their government from religion the better and happier we all will be.