Der Gasser

[smankow]

wellardmac wrote:

Guys, you might want to take this discussion to the DE thread where others might see it.

-W

I sent an email to Brian Minkin about trying to move this thread.

[ccm911]

Jack:

Do it!  Skid pad or car control, the students will get great bang for the buck.  Or, how about using autocross as a stepping stone?  I think this was discussed in the past.

I think you have some good ideas.  One thing is for sure, you will have quite a busy year next season in your new role.

All the best.

CCM

[Wellardmac]

I already moved it.

FYI, any problems with AX, Rally or OT and I can deal with them as I took over moderating them from Brian.

[catchacab]

elizabeth26 wrote:

A lot of ground could be covered with an in-depth autocross school, like the one we had at Vet Stadium in 2003 (though the space it was done on was cut in half at the last minute) There was in-car instruction, skid pad, threshold braking, slaloms... I had always thought it would be a great way for the DE participants to learn basic car control/dynamics before they got to the track. It could be done locally so more people would have access to it, as opposed to only being able to do the skidpads at the Summit facility. Lime Rock also has a skidpad (I always wondered why RTR never goes there, but I digress...) for Skippy School which teaches the kind of basics I'm talking about, as does most pro driver schools, including the Porsche Driving Experience, here and in Europe.

Elizabeth,

To further upon this thought, maybe a DE school should take place early in the season (March or April). In addition to the above stated activities we could add Heel/Toe downshifting.

-Eric

This Thread is really taking on a nice life

[catchacab]

smankow wrote:

catchacab wrote:

A little exercize to show that it is not only speed that can affect outcomes. Pick any corner at any track, and note your speed at turn in, apex and track out. Next lap go down the straight at your turn in speed, turn in at that same speed without using your brakes, match the speeds at apex and track out if you make it hock:.

Eric, this is over simplified but I agree with you 100%. What this scenerio will show you is that weight transfer is also a major player in the negotiating a turn. If you follow this example, you will learn that either you can take the turn faster or you will not be able to make the turn and possibly spin. I'm not sure what you are trying to identify in this exercise, though.



Steve

Steve,

I am identifying that speed alone ( unless taking a corner at a truely unreasonable rate) is not thre primary cause of a spin or off track excursion. Weight distribution is far more important. Weight distribution in the corners will influence your line and can cause a spin or trun your car into a lawn mower.

Basic street drivers ed: today's cars are designed to under steer, because Ralph Nader said under steering cars is safer than over steering cars (No more rear engined Covairs, and yes they were air cooled too). What is the solution for understeer, increase the turn radius or reduce your rate of speed. At speed on the track if you decide at mid turn or exiting the turn to increase your turn radius you may run out of track (based on the asumption that you took the turn at your normal turn in point, to increase turn radius (straiten out the turn) you need to move your turn in point earlier, turn in less, while keeping your apex at the same point). Reducing your rate of speed in a turn depending on the attitude of the vehicle, may not be an advisable option, you may be better off going off at the track out point.

I just wanted to all of you to figure this out yourselves.

-Eric

[Wellardmac]

I like the direction this conversation is going, as personally I think that the best way to learn handling is in an AX environment, so having a non-track AX/DE experience that helps educate and expand the AX crowd can only be a good thing.

[sandor]

wellardmac wrote:

sandor,
Hopefully you've seen the discussion on the AX forum about trying to make changes to AX to get greater participation, would you be in favor of an article (at some point) in Der Gasser to take this discussion to the membership?

If you write it, i'll most definitely print it.

[sandor]

wellardmac wrote:

I like the direction this conversation is going, as personally I think that the best way to learn handling is in an AX environment, so having a non-track AX/DE experience that helps educate and expand the AX crowd can only be a good thing.

This really reminds me of way back when i first experienced snow as a driver. It was only an inch or so of good quality, SE PA white stuff, but i was able to sneak out with my 305 powered, rear wheel drive caprice to the local community college parking lot.

i learned far more about car control in that half hour than i would have ever thought possible.

it has held with me since then too. 4 years in snowy western NY with a BMW 318i, 100 pounds of salt in the trunk and Blizzaks proved to me that 4-WD is meaningless on-road, unless you really don't know how to drive-the old lady in the ford fiesta will beat both of you over the snow pack anyway.
and when i had to bring my wife up to Rochester with me, she followed my advice and found a parking lot, and came back much more confident in her driving.


i dont mean to directly link bad weather driving and high speed driving, but car control is car control, the difference is that a tree at 20 mph in the snow will do a lot less damage than a tree at 90 in the dry. i am all for car control clinics/specialized AX training-i think even more of an emphasis on the Education part of DE would be a great benefit for our members (especially if it was held as a local, special event, where more members could easily participate.)

[jakp993]

Sandor,

Yeah - I grew up in Buffalo, NY.  My 1st car was a '71 Camaro V8 that I couldn't afford snow tires for.  I got very good at driving sideways

However, even with that experience, my first track event was quite an eye opener.  I felt I had time to react in the snow.  I was completely caught off guard by how fast a mistake was punished by my '91 Toyota MR2 on the track!  Plus, I suspect almost all of my snow based oversteer conditions were caused by over application of the throttle, not lifing in a corner.

I appreciate the feedback and ideas being presented here.  Keep them coming.

I want to make our DE program the best it can me.  We're starting from a position of strength, but that doesn't mean we can't improve on what we have.

Take care,

Jack

 

[Wellardmac]

Sandor, you nailed my perspective exactly - I learned car control in snow and taught it to my Californian wife when we moved out to the east coast.... find a nice big empty lot and take the car for a few spins.... that can teach you so many valuable things about your car.

-As for the Der Gasser article, I'll see where the current AX thread goes and maybe when we see Graham next (after he's elected) we can pull something together.