New Detroit bailout plan

[nplenzick]

Not touchy at all, I just think your overly stereo typing what the general public wants to think about union workers because they ethier don't belong to a good one or their jealous of the benefits that a union worker receives.

Everything a UAW worker has was won was in  negotiations. What could the company do? Let them go out on strike. Many large corporations have unions and have learned to coexist with one.

The people I have met who work for the car companies take a lot of pride in their work and are very aware of what's going on. I met an engineer for Ford this last year (non union worker) I asked him why Ford doesn't use some of the products that they have in Europe, after he stopped laughing he told me " Ford of USA simply does not really talk to Ford of Europe". He then went on to tell me about a cracking problem they we're having with their small V8 blocks. Apparently assembly line  workers discovered that holes were being drilled in the block and taped for no apparent reason and cracks we're developing around these useless holes. Formen on the assembly line approached management about the problems, it took four months for management  to stop the procedure. So who's at fault? Sometimes you need to look a little deeper then what might seam obvious.

You don't have to explain to me about the costs of health-care or anything else since I've been running my own business for 22 years. This past year has been the most difficult of my life! The past few weeks I have had ZERO sales, the first time ever. My savings are being rapidly depleted, if things don't change I'll be hitting what's left of my IRA in the next couple of months. It's been the most challenging thing financially and mentally that I have ever encountered. I value my independence and I'm putting everything on the line for it.  I'm not jealous of a UAW worker or any other worker for that matter. I could never go to a factory or sit in a cubical all day long. It's not for me. But business's like mine and most other's need that UAW worker, that trash truck driver, that person who sits in that cubical, we need them to survive.

So let's not blame anyone group, if people are so envious of a UAW worker, Federal state, or municipal worker or anyone else for that matter I would suggest you file an application and try to join that area of employment. For the rest of us lets try to look a little broader, a little less self servant, so we can prevent what has the potential to be a complete economic collapse of our economy.           

[nplenzick]

Ccns23 wrote:

And one more thing. If any or all of the big 3 go into bankruptcy it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone in the company will lose their jobs. Will there be job losses? Absolutely, but not everyone will. I think they can declare bankruptcy now and come out ahead of the game within the next 2 years. I still don't see exactly what they plan on doing with the "loan" they are asking for either. No one is giving a clear, concise plan on what they will use the money for and what they plan on doing in the future. They just have their hands out.

Funny how we don't see the foreign carmakers looking for handouts in their respective country's even though some of them are in the same boat as the big 3 in regards to sales. Wonder why that is???

The big three employ somewhere including all the sub contractors around 3 million. I only dissolved 50%. If GM goes bankrupt and some how gets away from not paying one or more of it's subs they too could go bankrupt. That same sub could be supplying Ford causing Ford to go under.

I agree that there needs to be a clear a concise plan, after all if you and I apply to a bank for a loan they need to know what your using it for before they loan us the money. Obama has said how disappointed he was when the CEO's came to Washington. I think they got the message and you'll see a well thought out plan before too long.

Don't be sure about the foreign car makers and handouts. German and Japanese car manufactures have very good health benefits much of which is supplied by their respective governments and as I pointed out earlier Honda ending US production here and bringing it back to the homeland. Stay tuned all them are doing poorly and I wouldn't be surprised if the economy continues in the dumpers that their governments might have to do something in the not to distant future.

[Ccns23]

It's not envy of these union workers. It's the fact that many americans sit on the other side of the fence (i.e. Non-union workers) and it seems that many of the things we pay for out of our own pocket they get handed to them. I enjoy my job and I have no issues whatsoever paying my part for my own retirement. I also see no problem with having to contribute towards my healthcare. What I, and many, don't understand is why many unions feel the need to not have to contribute at all towards these things.

Again, I am not blaming the union for the state of these automakers, it's definitely not their fault. On the otherhand they really aren't helping matters much either.

[catchacab]

Our country is in this predicament for a number of reasons:

 

1. There has been a dramatic change in our culture. 

      a.  People would generally stay with their employer for a very long time.  In recent time, everyone is always looking for the better job or company.   Today everyone has to have the best of everything: exotic vacations, expensive cars, large houses, TVs, Home Theater systems, clothes, jewelry, and expensive meals.  Today we all must live like moguls.  We used to be happy, with just living within our means.

       b.  Corporations would make decisions based on long term projections and expectations.  They invested their company's resources back into the company.  Today, executives are looking to maximize this quarters profit.  Get the result today, we will worry about the next decade when we get there.

       c  Years ago, when some one bought a stock they would receive a stock certificate and keep that stock until they needed the money for retirement, education, illness, etc.  Today, stocks are traded like we traded Baseball cards in elementary school.

 

2.  We have exported our industrial base.  It is our industrial base that enabled us to win WWII, and become the dominant power in the world, economically, militarily, and politically.

     a. Unions were necessary when there were not laws that mandated worker protections and practices. Today, in my opinion, many unions are there to support the union, not the worker.  Many unions have made demands that resulted in manufacturers being unable to profit while using union labor.  Why with a wonderful convention center does Philadelphia not attract many large conventions?  It is the union contracts and ridiculous work rules that steer convention planners elsewhere.  The day of the union's purpose as an organization that protects workers is over.

     b. Environmental laws have made doing business cost prohibitive in our country for some businesses.

3. Our government has become grossly inefficient and too large.  It has also ignored the country's infrastructure, and has not fostered long term planning, failed our education system, and caters to a small vocal minority of special interests.

In the past two decades we have artificially inflated stock prices, home prices, and land prices.  The time has come where the economy is adjusting prices to realistic levels.  We have avoided truly bad economic times for 27 years, through means that would for the short term, improve the economy.  However, we are at the end of usefulness of these artificial means (adjusting the money supply, stimulus checks and interest rates). 

OPEC is not our friend, the manipulation of oil prices has contributed to this crisis.

So how do we fix this situation:

1. Create an environment that fosters manufacturing and export.

2. Repair, improve and properly maintain our infrastructure.

3. Make education a priority.  We need the world's next Einstein or Edison to be an American.  American ingenuity with our industrial base will again make us the greatest and most powerful country in the world.

4. The government must give up the idea that they can support all senior citizens through Social Security and Medicaid.  Limits must be placed on the dollars that are spent on the health of our non-working members of our society.  No one wants their parent or grandparent denied medical treatment based on expense, but we only have so many dollars, and we need to invest those dollars on those who will lead, and produce the future of our country.  Our priority must be on the young!

5. Create alternative energy technology, and make it affordable to all Americans.  Today even with tax credit and the limited grant programs, alternative energy (solar especially) is more expensive for the consumer than fossil fuels.  Larger tax credits and improved and larger grant programs must be instituted to allow for more citizens to be able to afford these technologies, and in the end reduce the per unit costs of these technologies, and simultaneously eliminating our need to import energy.  These programs should also be available to business.

6. Reward those who invest for the long term.  Create capital gains exemptions for those who invest funds with out reallocating them.  If you buy stock X and keep it for 10 years then you will be exempt from taxes on those gains.  If you sell a stock that you own for less than 10 years, then you will be taxed (This applies for corporations also).

7. Learn to live with in our means!

8. Pay executives based on long term performance, not how profitable the company was this quarter.

9. Demand excellence and productivity from all workers (from the lowest level to the CEO)

10. Reduce the size of government, and hold those who have government jobs to the standards of the private sector.

11. Outlaw out sourcing and short term short term labor.

12. Reform our legal/court system.  Reduce annual law school class size by 75%.

The time has come for us as a nation to stop pushing paper, now we come to the end of the paper pushing economy, it is time for us to push steel, composites, energy and technology just to name a few.

Let the poorly managed companies fail.  Take the best and brightest our country has to offer and reinvent our failed industries.  Think outside of the box!  Don't be happy with the status quo, improve upon everything you see.  Become involved!

This is just the beginning........

 

 

 

[emayer]

Outstanding!  Now that's CHANGE I can believe in....

I'd go so far to say that if it meant tax increases to implement this type of reform I wouldn't complain as this addresses future growth versus simply throwing money around to patch things over.  Can you run for office next election? 

[Ccns23]

Ya got my vote

[catchacab]

The correct way to increase revenue that the government (federal, state and local) collects is not by increasing tax rates, but by growing the economy.  Initially we would have to increase governmental debt, but after the program has met its initial goals we should be able to return to balanced budgets, and pay off our governmental debt completely. 

Governmental debt should only be incurred in crisis (financial or war time), or to fund large scale capital improvements.

On a federal level, pork barrel projects that do not befit the country as a whole should be eliminated.  These pork barrel projects if truly needed by a state, region or locality will now be undertaken by the state, cooperation of a few states or locality.  The President and governors should be given line item veto powers.

Over time, if these plans are followed, we should be able to decrease the federal tax rate, state and local tax rates may increase, but overall the total percentage of a family's income that pays taxes should decrease.

 

[ccm911]

4. The government must give up the idea that they can support all senior citizens through Social Security and Medicaid.  Limits must be placed on the dollars that are spent on the health of our non-working members of our society.  No one wants their parent or grandparent denied medical treatment based on expense, but we only have so many dollars, and we need to invest those dollars on those who will lead, and produce the future of our country.  Our priority must be on the young!


I was with you all the way until I read this point.  While you raise some good points, I shudder to think what would happen to those unable to defend themselves under your watch.

[emayer]

catchacab wrote:

The correct way to increase revenue that the government (federal, state and local) collects is not by increasing tax rates, but by growing the economy. Initially we would have to increase governmental debt, but after the program has met its initial goals we should be able to return to balanced budgets, and pay off our governmental debt completely.

Governmental debt should only be incurred in crisis (financial or war time), or to fund large scale capital improvements.

On a federal level, pork barrel projects that do not befit the country as a whole should be eliminated. These pork barrel projects if truly needed by a state, region or locality will now be undertaken by the state, cooperation of a few states or locality. The President and governors should be given line item veto powers.

Over time, if these plans are followed, we should be able to decrease the federal tax rate, state and local tax rates may increase, but overall the total percentage of a family's income that pays taxes should decrease.

Agree completely. Personally would favor some element of tax increase along with close budget scrutiny rather than additional debt to get things running initially. One point to consider adding to the program is the line-tem-veto. This could greatly help reduce pork and expedite legislation without all the bogus earmarks being added.

As for healthcare of the elderly, I agree conceptually with the reform but have to be extremely careful of its implementation. Health dollars are best spent on the young and for disease prevention which will ultimately reduce costs in the subsequent care of the elderly. With boomers entering retirement age, the evolving burden on our current system will be great. Any reform in elder care should focus on quality of life issues such as pain control for chronic disease, homecare needs, home visits to render care, access to medications, etc. which will help avoid hospitalizations and further reduce costs.

[catchacab]

ccm911 wrote:

4. The government must give up the idea that they can support all senior citizens through Social Security and Medicaid. Limits must be placed on the dollars that are spent on the health of our non-working members of our society. No one wants their parent or grandparent denied medical treatment based on expense, but we only have so many dollars, and we need to invest those dollars on those who will lead, and produce the future of our country. Our priority must be on the young!


I was with you all the way until I read this point. While you raise some good points, I shudder to think what would happen to those unable to defend themselves under your watch.

I agree with you that it is not a nice thing to do, but for the benefit of our county and society changes and sacrifices need to be made.


We need to change our perception of tax dollars, from money that the government takes from us to an investment that we make in our country. Along this line of thinking we must concentrate our resources on projects and people who will improve our country.

We should help the elderly, for the future economic health of our country we NEED to place limits on what health care modalities government will pay for. Additionally, commercial insurers will need to place limits on their subscribers benefits to keep medical insurance costs affordable to individuals and employers. We should have learned from the HMO model, that cost savings can be appreciated through decreasing access to care and treatments. The problem with the HMO model is that health care providers assumed malpractice risk, by not offering some treatments. All treatments should be available to all citizens, but not at the expense of the government or private insurers.

It would be nice to say that ideal health care is a right, but financially that right is impossible. Care, medications and treatments for many diseases that are currently available and keeping many people alive, were not available just 20 years ago. Now we face an increasing percentage of the population that require vastly increased medical care, that would have been dead 20 years ago.

Unfortunately, we can not afford the medical costs of immortality.

We also must re-educate personal responsibility to our citizens. It is up to each individual to plan for the future. Too many tax dollars are spent on a highly vocal segment of our population that is not as important as the younger members of our society, that has no political voice, for the future of our country. Invest this money into programs that will educate our young and reshape the future of the country.