Car Control-How is it taught?

[Hammerin Hank]

fasthonda wrote:

hey steve (and others?) -- i'd be ALL OVER an ice racing outing!!!!! i'll run my everyday car; its a mazda 626, with over 211k miles on it. its a V6, 5sp (same drivetrain as the probenstien). she's bone bone stock, and i know it like the back of my hand! i've got a set of used snows on it right now, and i'd go to a ice race track and try my hand without further urging!!!!!

i'm 100% serious! who else is in? (and i'll mount my camera up somehow in it, so i can share the results with the rest of the rtr forum members!)....

here's my trusty steed:

let's do it, men!

todd

Okay..I'll bring my bike....LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcUKLhEQX...re=related

[opus]

Has anyone here attended the Evo Performance Driving (auto-x) School before?  If so, what do you think?  They got two dates coming up - June 27 and September 27, both Saturdays.  I am thinking of signing up.

http://www.evoschool.com/index.php

[betegh9]

opus wrote:

Has anyone here attended the Evo Performance Driving (auto-x) School before? If so, what do you think? They got two dates coming up - June 27 and September 27, both Saturdays. I am thinking of signing up.

http://www.evoschool.com/index.php

Opus! I personally, haven't attended the EVO school. I know though, that they are geared for all out competition up to a national level of AX racing, and one gets the most benefit once you have done quite a bit of local AX instruction and seat time. Unfortunately many complain that actual driving time in an AX event is not enough for devoting a day. SCCA AX events only allow 3 runs per car for a total of less than 3 minutes, but there are other clubs in the area ( within 1.5 hr drive) that offer as many as 8 runs per car together with instructors if one chooses. Look for the NNJR CCC (Car Control Clinique) on May 30th......... a good place to start. Tickets go FAST!!

[George3]

Hi All…

I’ve been watching and reading this thread carefully since the OP posted it.  There have been lots of great ideas submitted by many well-heeled senior instructors on this topic of Car Control – How Is It Taught.  I was tempted many times to jump in with my ideas, but held off posting until I could put my thoughts together in a short version.   I realized that’s impossible,  There are so many things that make up car control and how and when to teach it to the student that it’s not an easy subject. Good choice of topic, Steve! 

All the advice given here is good and it would be awesome if someone would summarize the key points of this fantastic thread and have it converted to a Car Control Clinic article to be printed in the next Der Gasser.   I believe this thread is that valuable and that important!

Instructed students should read this entire thread over-and-over prior to their next DE event.

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Car Control – How Is It Taught

Let me first preface by saying that “every driver�? and “every car�? is different.  And no two cars or drivers will perform the same.  I’ll explain some of the things that worked for me; however, these may not work for others.  This is the bottom line  . . . you need lots, and lots, AND LOTS of seat time.  You really need to become very familiar with your car.  The student needs to become “one�? with the car BEFORE testing the limits of car control at high speeds.  Once the student becomes “one�? with the car, the car will instinctively travel in the direction you want, without having to consciously think about the action.  Corrections will become instinctive and automatic.  

Knowing your car and being “one “ with the car is the beginning point at which you KNOW and TRUST the car and know it’s limitations. Only then can you start to take it to the next level on the track.    Furthermore, every car reacts and handles differently, as every driver responds differently.  I’ve been very fortunate to have tracked at least 5 very different cars on 8-to-10 different road courses.  As Todd mentioned, these experiences are registered in the mental computer of your brain for future use when you need to draw on that experience at the appropriate time.  

An excellent learning tool, as many have confirmed, is driving in the rain,  This is when each car will duplicate high speed dry driving conditions and car behavior at its utmost, but at much slower speeds.  When setup and driven correctly, a lesser car can easily keep up or outpace the more powerful car in the rain.  Last year I had a blast driving my 2 liter / 4 cylinder WRX at Pocono North in the pouring rain.  That day was pretty much an open track washout and many folks didn’t bother going out in the rain. 

Well folks, the track was mine that day.  On that day alone I logged 191 miles on a soaking wet track in my Subaru WRX.  Talk about practicing!  I was driving at the limit with a 25 feet high rooster tail on the bowl and there were some pretty significant cars that I easily passed.  I had the correct tires, the correct sway bar settings and the correct steering and throttle input at each corner.  I was slipping and sliding all over the place but with one difference…. I KNEW exactly what the car would do, at what corner and at what speed and I was PREPARED for the outcome and automatically anticipated the correction.  I learned a lot and it was great fun.

Another time was in the pouring rain at last year’s RTR Watkins Glen event.  I was driving at the limit, and I do mean at the limit. . . this time in the Evo.  Todd, Bob and I were duking it out in the rain and it was soooo much fun!  Partly because I really had to concentrate and listen to the car and that I was learning even more about my driving style and about my car than ever before.  Very small inputs made huge response differences in the rain.  Being smooth was critical.  Absolutely, critical.  I was on the edge, but I learned mega- about my car.  

There is no easy answer to the OP’s question, because it’s a combination of things.  I’m not sure an instructor can safely impart car control to a Green student.  Me?  I wouldn’t even try to teach that to a Green student, because that means driving at or near “their�? limit . . . and the Green student just isn’t prepared for that.  If something doesn’t go according to plan, he/she would be untrained to handle the situation and the consequences wouldn’t be pretty.  He/she is still in the baby crib of learning the car, the track, the line, corner analysis (entry/apex/exit), and you as the instructor are probably still holding them back to only using 2 gears.   They are already in informational overload.  

A Blue student?  Maybe . . . Maybe not.  The Blue student is a little more skilled, has a little more knowledge, has a little more track awareness, and has at least half dozen or more events under his/her belt.  It also depends on the driver:  Are they instinctively wired, How the car is set up, and Are they knowledgeable about things like softening or stiffening the sway bars and understand what these changes do.  And even then, teaching car control would have to be at a forgiving track with absolutely no traffic, perhaps Autocross, as Nick suggested.  I can’t allow any of my students to drive more than 8/10’s, and I prefer they drive less.  They learn more at slower speeds, their comprehension is better . . . less stress and less to worry about.  And, if the Blue student is capable of driving his or her car safely and predictably at more than 8/10’s then they’re probably ready to be moved up to the next higher run group.

 


CAVEAT

Once a Blue student is moved up to a solo run group, they feel they have now become accomplished drivers. Many students see advancing to White as a graduation of sorts and a loss of dependency to the instructor.  There lies the danger and that’s why White is considered the most risky run group. They say: “a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.�? After advancing from Blue, the newly solo’d student is at a point where they only begin to scratch the surface of mastering car control with their own car. The White student should absolutely continue to have instruction or coaching on a regular basis in order to further develop their basic car control skills and really begin testing the outer limits of the car. 

For me, continued instruction and coaching through White and through Black gave me the confidence and skill sets I needed for achieving that “one-ness�? with the car.  This is where the student starts to realize which tire and suspension modifications could better improve their car to improve handling and control.  As Bob mentions, perhaps using the Skid Pad, as an example.

It is also recommended that instructed students should not even think about R-compound tires until they have a lot of driving time under their belt.  This is for a good reason.  High performance treaded street tires will gradually talk to you and let go predictably allowing you to learn to make the right corrections at a reasonable pace.  Once the driver becomes proficient on street tires, is when they will instinctively know to transition to the stickier R-compound tires.  I think a lot of drivers jump up to R-compound tires too early and really leave a lot on the table as far as experiencing the physics of what the car can and cannot do.  Sure it gives you bragging rights in the paddock, but they are shortchanging themselves on the learning curve.  

 

Are O.S Moments A Good Thing?

Another aspect of a lot of seat time is experiencing the oversteering and the understeering situations, you have to experience the spins, you have to have the “Oops�? and O.S. moments.  And, when the Sphinctometer goes to full tight, you know you screwed up.  Hopefully, these moments will have happy endings, but that’s when you can begin to analyze the WHY’s and Wherefores of those things that just happened.  Turned in too early?  Braked too late?  On the throttle too early?  Took that apex a little wide and forced the car to stay on the track?  Went two wheels off and instead of letting the car run out, jerk it back on the track?  That’s how you know and learn car control, is by experiencing these events first hand and THEN it’s stored in our computer upstairs.  And, learning these things is all about seat time at a speed that is realistic for the experience level of the student and capability of the car.  Car Control needs to be chewed off in baby bites as CatchACab cautiously mentioned.  Little-by-little.  



In summary , , ,

>>       Lots of seat time is critical in the learning process and developing stages of your driving career.  

>>       Driving in the rain at an intensity that forces you to recognize subtle changes in car behavior on the track.  

>>       Continued instruction and coaching after being promoted to a solo run group. . .

This and so much more is what I believe learning and teaching car control is all about.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I felt it was important for the benefit of the Novice and Instructed Student to express myself in a single post, rather than piecing it together with multiple posts.  This is not an easy topic with quick-fix answers, but a compilation of many ideas and skill sets which need to be applied by the Novice DE Student.  This is just my humble opinion and if I was able to help at least one driver to improve his or her driving and car control skills, I will have considered the objective of this post to have been met.  

Oh and yes. . . I’ve had my O.S. moments too, believe me.  I’ll never forget where or when I had them and hopefully will never make the same mistake twice!

Wishing all a safe driving season and a happy and healthy 2009 !!!





 

[betegh9]

George3 wrote:

Hi All…

I’ve been watching and reading this thread carefully since the OP posted it. There have been lots of great ideas submitted by many well-heeled senior instructors on this topic of Car Control – How Is It Taught. I was tempted many times to jump in with my ideas, but held off posting until I could put my thoughts together in a short version. I realized that’s impossible, There are so many things that make up car control and how and when to teach it to the student that it’s not an easy subject. Good choice of topic, Steve!

All the advice given here is good and it would be awesome if someone would summarize the key points of this fantastic thread and have it converted to a Car Control Clinic article to be printed in the next Der Gasser. I believe this thread is that valuable and that important!

Instructed students should read this entire thread over-and-over prior to their next DE event.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Car Control – How Is It Taught

Let me first preface by saying that “every driver�? and “every car�? is different. And no two cars or drivers will perform the same. I’ll explain some of the things that worked for me; however, these may not work for others. This is the bottom line . . . you need lots, and lots, AND LOTS of seat time. You really need to become very familiar with your car. The student needs to become “one�? with the car BEFORE testing the limits of car control at high speeds. Once the student becomes “one�? with the car, the car will instinctively travel in the direction you want, without having to consciously think about the action. Corrections will become instinctive and automatic.

Knowing your car and being “one “ with the car is the beginning point at which you KNOW and TRUST the car and know it’s limitations. Only then can you start to take it to the next level on the track. Furthermore, every car reacts and handles differently, as every driver responds differently. I’ve been very fortunate to have tracked at least 5 very different cars on 8-to-10 different road courses. As Todd mentioned, these experiences are registered in the mental computer of your brain for future use when you need to draw on that experience at the appropriate time.

An excellent learning tool, as many have confirmed, is driving in the rain, This is when each car will duplicate high speed dry driving conditions and car behavior at its utmost, but at much slower speeds. When setup and driven correctly, a lesser car can easily keep up or outpace the more powerful car in the rain. Last year I had a blast driving my 2 liter / 4 cylinder WRX at Pocono North in the pouring rain. That day was pretty much an open track washout and many folks didn’t bother going out in the rain.

Well folks, the track was mine that day. On that day alone I logged 191 miles on a soaking wet track in my Subaru WRX. Talk about practicing! I was driving at the limit with a 25 feet high rooster tail on the bowl and there were some pretty significant cars that I easily passed. I had the correct tires, the correct sway bar settings and the correct steering and throttle input at each corner. I was slipping and sliding all over the place but with one difference…. I KNEW exactly what the car would do, at what corner and at what speed and I was PREPARED for the outcome and automatically anticipated the correction. I learned a lot and it was great fun.

Another time was in the pouring rain at last year’s RTR Watkins Glen event. I was driving at the limit, and I do mean at the limit. . . this time in the Evo. Todd, Bob and I were duking it out in the rain and it was soooo much fun! Partly because I really had to concentrate and listen to the car and that I was learning even more about my driving style and about my car than ever before. Very small inputs made huge response differences in the rain. Being smooth was critical. Absolutely, critical. I was on the edge, but I learned mega- about my car.

There is no easy answer to the OP’s question, because it’s a combination of things. I’m not sure an instructor can safely impart car control to a Green student. Me? I wouldn’t even try to teach that to a Green student, because that means driving at or near “their�? limit . . . and the Green student just isn’t prepared for that. If something doesn’t go according to plan, he/she would be untrained to handle the situation and the consequences wouldn’t be pretty. He/she is still in the baby crib of learning the car, the track, the line, corner analysis (entry/apex/exit), and you as the instructor are probably still holding them back to only using 2 gears. They are already in informational overload.

A Blue student? Maybe . . . Maybe not. The Blue student is a little more skilled, has a little more knowledge, has a little more track awareness, and has at least half dozen or more events under his/her belt. It also depends on the driver: Are they instinctively wired, How the car is set up, and Are they knowledgeable about things like softening or stiffening the sway bars and understand what these changes do. And even then, teaching car control would have to be at a forgiving track with absolutely no traffic, perhaps Autocross, as Nick suggested. I can’t allow any of my students to drive more than 8/10’s, and I prefer they drive less. They learn more at slower speeds, their comprehension is better . . . less stress and less to worry about. And, if the Blue student is capable of driving his or her car safely and predictably at more than 8/10’s then they’re probably ready to be moved up to the next higher run group.




CAVEAT

Once a Blue student is moved up to a solo run group, they feel they have now become accomplished drivers. Many students see advancing to White as a graduation of sorts and a loss of dependency to the instructor. There lies the danger and that’s why White is considered the most risky run group. They say: “a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.�? After advancing from Blue, the newly solo’d student is at a point where they only begin to scratch the surface of mastering car control with their own car. The White student should absolutely continue to have instruction or coaching on a regular basis in order to further develop their basic car control skills and really begin testing the outer limits of the car.

For me, continued instruction and coaching through White and through Black gave me the confidence and skill sets I needed for achieving that “one-ness�? with the car. This is where the student starts to realize which tire and suspension modifications could better improve their car to improve handling and control. As Bob mentions, perhaps using the Skid Pad, as an example.

It is also recommended that instructed students should not even think about R-compound tires until they have a lot of driving time under their belt. This is for a good reason. High performance treaded street tires will gradually talk to you and let go predictably allowing you to learn to make the right corrections at a reasonable pace. Once the driver becomes proficient on street tires, is when they will instinctively know to transition to the stickier R-compound tires. I think a lot of drivers jump up to R-compound tires too early and really leave a lot on the table as far as experiencing the physics of what the car can and cannot do. Sure it gives you bragging rights in the paddock, but they are shortchanging themselves on the learning curve.



Are O.S Moments A Good Thing?

Another aspect of a lot of seat time is experiencing the oversteering and the understeering situations, you have to experience the spins, you have to have the “Oops�? and O.S. moments. And, when the Sphinctometer goes to full tight, you know you screwed up. Hopefully, these moments will have happy endings, but that’s when you can begin to analyze the WHY’s and Wherefores of those things that just happened. Turned in too early? Braked too late? On the throttle too early? Took that apex a little wide and forced the car to stay on the track? Went two wheels off and instead of letting the car run out, jerk it back on the track? That’s how you know and learn car control, is by experiencing these events first hand and THEN it’s stored in our computer upstairs. And, learning these things is all about seat time at a speed that is realistic for the experience level of the student and capability of the car. Car Control needs to be chewed off in baby bites as CatchACab cautiously mentioned. Little-by-little.



In summary , , ,

>> Lots of seat time is critical in the learning process and developing stages of your driving career.

>> Driving in the rain at an intensity that forces you to recognize subtle changes in car behavior on the track.

>> Continued instruction and coaching after being promoted to a solo run group. . .

This and so much more is what I believe learning and teaching car control is all about.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I felt it was important for the benefit of the Novice and Instructed Student to express myself in a single post, rather than piecing it together with multiple posts. This is not an easy topic with quick-fix answers, but a compilation of many ideas and skill sets which need to be applied by the Novice DE Student. This is just my humble opinion and if I was able to help at least one driver to improve his or her driving and car control skills, I will have considered the objective of this post to have been met.

Oh and yes. . . I’ve had my O.S. moments too, believe me. I’ll never forget where or when I had them and hopefully will never make the same mistake twice!

Wishing all a safe driving season and a happy and healthy 2009 !!!

George!
Can you put this in book form, go to Kinkos and make 100 copies? hock: This may be something to pass out to all new students who enter this sport, together with all the other classroom instruction material.

I agree completely with your summary. I can't tell how many off course excursions I've had in AX events, many of them in the rain, that have been engraved in my mind, and learned from them. Fortunately, none of these have been costly, just the ego tarnished a bit.

I found out that over the years, many DE students were too eager to move up the ranks from green to black with really not enough seat time and full understanding of suspension geometry and physics. I, after more than 15 years of AX and DE, decided to move up to black and now been asked to become a PCA instructor by chief instructors of 2 different regions. I guess that I did not feel confident and ready, in the past to move up to the black run group. My AX experience has taught me much in a SAFE, controlled setting. Even now, I ask another instructor or chief instructor to sit in with me at when I go to the track, and it is unbelievable all the little things I pick up. I also take pleasure to ride with another driver and learn a few more things. This is a sport that one never stops learning. If someone comes along and tells you that he/she knows everything about driving, they're FULL of you know what.

George, I enjoyed reading your BOOK!

[JoeP]

As a first-year Blue student, I have one additional bit of DE advice. --  Experience as many  different tracks as you can, even "bad" tracks.  Each track provides a different mix of speed, turn radius, camber, etc. that add to the student's library of experience.  In my case, I have spent too much time at Watkins Glen over the past three years -- including some great sessions in the rain.  I was pretty happy with my progress until I drove a smaller track in the Fall.  The high speed, sweeping turns at the Glen did not prepare me at all for the bam-bam-bam demands of a series of tighter turns at BeaveRun.  I stunk up the place.  However, I replayed prior class sessions, mentally picked apart each corner, and things improved.     

[Racingswh]

George3 wrote:

Hi All…

I’ve been watching and reading this thread carefully since the OP posted it. There have been lots of great ideas submitted by many well-heeled senior instructors on this topic of Car Control – How Is It Taught. I was tempted many times to jump in with my ideas, but held off posting until I could put my thoughts together in a short version. I realized that’s impossible, There are so many things that make up car control and how and when to teach it to the student that it’s not an easy subject. Good choice of topic, Steve!

All the advice given here is good and it would be awesome if someone would summarize the key points of this fantastic thread and have it converted to a Car Control Clinic article to be printed in the next Der Gasser. I believe this thread is that valuable and that important!

Instructed students should read this entire thread over-and-over prior to their next DE event.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Car Control – How Is It Taught

Let me first preface by saying that “every driver�? and “every car�? is different. And no two cars or drivers will perform the same. I’ll explain some of the things that worked for me; however, these may not work for others. This is the bottom line . . . you need lots, and lots, AND LOTS of seat time. You really need to become very familiar with your car. The student needs to become “one�? with the car BEFORE testing the limits of car control at high speeds. Once the student becomes “one�? with the car, the car will instinctively travel in the direction you want, without having to consciously think about the action. Corrections will become instinctive and automatic.



Wishing all a safe driving season and a happy and healthy 2009 !!!

Hi George,

I hope the off season has been good to you.

Many drivers don't get the kind of seat time you do. You get more seat time in one season than a guy like my father will have in 5. So for a driver like him becoming comfortable and "one" with the car is more difficult. You have had a season long instruction experience with one of the best car control experts in our club and you have benefited tremendously. You are now aware of your own limits and drive within them exceptionally well. That's difficult to teach a less experienced driver as they have know idea where their limits even are.

My conclusion is that it can't really be taught in a conventional DE environment to your average driver just out to have some fun and enjoy their car. Our job is to keep these drivers safe and let them have a great time without going too far. If we feel they are going too fast and the car is nearing the limit we need to be able to tell them to slow down. Not try to impart on them how to control a sliding car.

I happen to think Catchacab's idea of an extra large slightly damp skid pad where pace creates the slide is the way to go. Everything else puts you prematurely in harms way especially at a track that's unforgiving.

We are going to try the many ways already suggested and I will get back to you with our results and tales of improvement or not. We'll see how it goes this season.

.

[KennyB]

Hmmm.  Car control...you mean like this?

http://es.motorfull.com/2008/11/21/ken-b...-gymkhana/

[George3]

That's Ken Block.  Rally racing champion.

I actually called him last month to see if he has a driving or car control school. 
He does not.   Pity.

[betegh9]

Ken Block? I've been doing that in my sleep for years now.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Like I said.............. IN MY SLEEP! hock:

GREAT driving and control for a drifter, but may not be the fastest way thru a AX course.