Car Control-How is it taught?

[bobt993]

betegh9 wrote:

Ken Block? I've been doing that in my sleep for years now.
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..Like I said.............. IN MY SLEEP! hock:

GREAT driving and control for a drifter, but may not be the fastest way thru a AX course.

That explains a lot. That process is called "Dreaming".

[betegh9]

bobt993 wrote:

betegh9 wrote:

Ken Block? I've been doing that in my sleep for years now.
.
.
..Like I said.............. IN MY SLEEP! hock:

GREAT driving and control for a drifter, but may not be the fastest way thru a AX course.

That explains a lot. That process is called "Dreaming".

I NEVER dream!........... at least, when I wake up, I don't remember a thing. :?

[Racingswh]

KennyB wrote:

Hmmm. Car control...you mean like this?

http://es.motorfull.com/2008/11/21/ken-b...-gymkhana/

Very Cool!

Not what I mean. Those are induced slides done by the driver. He does have exceptional control of his car as it relates to his discipline. His pace isn't making that car slide. Actually he is going very, very slowly. His steering, throttle and handbrake applications are working together to slide that car.

What I mean and is so hard to explain is that point when you're going so fast into a corner that the tires don't have anymore grip to give you. You're speed sensing abilities need to be sharp. When you turn in the car does but barely and only as long as you're on the perfect line that will support your speed. Mid corner the car feels like it's going to fly off the track and into the barrier as you go flat to the floor with the accelerator but somehow it stays on. The car slides, drifts all 4 wheels, all the way to track out, up over the rumble strips using all the track and a little more almost hitting the wall.

Now go that fast and throw in an early turn in mistake and your CAR CONTROL skills become very important. That skill set is what is so hard to teach and in my opinion not what students are there to learn in DE.

[bobt993]

Still the best answer(s) are driving in the rain on the wrong tires  (AX, skidpad, Road Course).   A course like Summit is perfect for testing limits in a couple of turns.  Usually there are no more than a handful of cars on the track so a spin is pretty safe.  

Ask Todd Reid about driving on a track with peanut oil on it while raining.  Both of us were surprised at how bad the conditions were and it took at least 3 laps to adjust to what we found out were beyond normal wet track conditions.   Staying ahead of the car required aggressive throttle lifts and opposite lock in several turns.  

Jack and I had talked about a car control clinic a year ago and it started to move forward, but somehow got lost in the myriad of events going on.

[bobt993]

FYI, driving in the rain is a challenge for club racers also.  This is a field of almost 70 cars including a lot of faster cars/classes than my car.  It starts raining right at the start and all of us are on slicks, one guy way in the back is on rain tires.   The guys up front are some of the best club racers in PCA.  I started 14th and moved to 1st in 3 laps because of my comfort in the rain.   These drivers are very fast in the dry, but if you are just a little hesitant,  you cannot drive close to 10/10th in the rain. 

http://bobt993.neptune.com?selectedalbum=bobt993368020

[ninjabones]

I am by no means an expert in car control ("turn 10"), but the best car-control learning experience I had so far was a two-day Skip Barber Driving (not racing) school at LRP that was given to me as a present a few years ago.  The school is a bit pricey and a lot less popular than the more glamorous schools where you drive the high performance cars.  About 95% of our time was spent behind the wheels of dodge neons and dodge pick-up trucks.  However, I think we got a lot more bang for the buck as we were not only allowed, but encouraged, to throw these cars around with reckless abandon.  They don't let you do that with their high-priced performance cars.  Most of the exercises were very simple, and could easily be practiced near home in an empty parking lot:

Some of the exercises I remember:


- an absolute ton of skid pad time in an overpowered rear-wheel-drive Dodge pick up with shaved rear tires. The shaved rear tires and SRT 10 front engine made the experience challenging to say the least.

- autocross-like competition with a a salad bowl mounted on the hood.  The goal was to push the limit while at the same time keeping your inputs smooth enough to prevent a tennis ball from flying out of the bowl.  It was absolutely amazing watching what some of the instructors could do while still keeping the tennis ball in the bowl (drifting, threshold braking, etc). They made the exercise fun by turning it into a competition for best lap-times. This was all done in a dodge neon.

-  we probably spent a half-day just working on threshold braking (again in a dodge neon).  They really made what could have been a boring exercise, a lot of fun.  we lined up in a loop and just repeated over and over and over again getting up to speed (65 mph) and threshold braking. We had radios in the cars so the instructors could give us constant feedback based on their analysis of our reaction times, looking at our brake lights, how the nose of the car was dipping/bouncing, how we responded to wheel lock-up, stopping distance, etc). 

-  emergency lane-changing / obstacle avoidance drills at speed. This was a nice drill for understanding weight transfer and how to react in code-brown tank slapping situations.

-  a very short autocross competition in dodge vipers  It was a lot of fun, but they kept us on a short leash.  I think this part of the program was mostly to make the school sound more glamorous in the advertisements.

- There was plenty (perhaps too much) of classroom time to reinforce everything. The quality of the teaching was excellent.  However, I think Jack's lectures are as good or better.

The overall theme of the school was repetition in order to make the reactions instinctual.  They also made a point that these skills have to be practiced regularly.

I think it would be a lot of fun to put together a car control clinic for the club ... we could even make it somewhat competitive using some of the drills that Skip Barber used.  I'd be glad to work with our limey autocross chair on this (you listening steve?)

Later in the month, I'm taking the Skip Barber 3-day racing school in the formula cars with el presidente (graham). I'll report back with comments from the experience.

[fasthonda]

bobt993 wrote:

FYI, driving in the rain is a challenge for club racers also. This is a field of almost 70 cars including a lot of faster cars/classes than my car. It starts raining right at the start and all of us are on slicks, one guy way in the back is on rain tires. The guys up front are some of the best club racers in PCA. I started 14th and moved to 1st in 3 laps because of my comfort in the rain. These drivers are very fast in the dry, but if you are just a little hesitant, you cannot drive close to 10/10th in the rain.

http://bobt993.neptune.com?selectedalbum=bobt993368020

awesome drive, bob! notice how bob is CRUSHING the other drivers in the braking zones -- this is the real definition of 'threshold braking'; he has a great feel (from lots of practice and experience) of what the car feels like when it is just on the edge of adhesion -- if you watch carefully, bob is gaining sometimes 5+ carlengths at each brake zone!!! thats how you move up thru the field so quickly; he is decimating them when it comes to applying the brakes! also note that many times he is 'geared up'; i do this very frequently in the rain or slick conditions; i run the car 'one gear up' from its usual dry track condition gear... for example, i'll leave it in 4th, instead of using 3rd, so that laying down the power is smoother, and easier to control (plus, less shifting to do in those conditions!).

that drive at the glen was a really good teaching tool to view -- you also got to see how the pavement changes affected the car (going from asphalt to concrete and back again), and you could see that when he drove it all the way out to the painted curbs that it really slipped a few times on that paint! excellent vid! bob, you sliced 'em up like a shark in a tank of goldfish!

todd

[Phokaioglaukos]

That site wants Quicktime player 6, and I have 7. Anyone else with this problem, or is there another site where I can see it?

[fasthonda]

hey guys!   here is a vid from 5 yrs ago;  it was at VIR North course.  the setup is as follows:   the weather forecast had be for 'scattered showers'.  i got up to the grid, along with most of the other cars about 15 mins in advance.  with about 5 mins to go, it POURED rain for about 3 mins.  then slacked off to a moderate drizzle.  almost everyone was on dry tires;  as usual, i was on bald junk-pile takeoffs (old BFG Gforces!).  i was really concerned as we headed out for the pacelap!!!   i was qualified first (qualifying was on a dry track).  as i said, most everyone was on their dry tires, except for one guy (who also happened to be in my class!).  he had changed up his tires at the last minute -- you will see him fly past me on the OUTSIDE of the uphill corner to the North crossover!  and then you'll never see him again;  he went on to pass every car on the track and finished first overall!!!   thats what full rains will do for you!

the Probe was really slippy and slidey, mostly pushing with understeer, especially during the opening laps.  there was alot of standing water and spray for the first laps, and i was hemorraging some positions...  it could have been much worse, as cars were sliding off the track everywhere!!!   lots of yellow flags being displayed!  lol!  as the laps wore on, the standing water dispersed, and a thin dry line began to appear;   to go fast, you had to 'precision drive' and keep your two wheels on the dry line....  if you were going quickly, and misjudged by just a little bit, and went wide of the two dry tire lines, then you could say 'goodbye!' and slide off the course!  had to drive neat and tidy!!!!   as you will see, by the end of the race, i had really picked up the pace;  if there would have been another 10 minutes, i would have caught back up to the guy with the wet tires and passed him!  enjoy:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...3049436223

i've got a few more rain vids;  i'll try to dig them up!

todd

[fasthonda]

here's another vid clip from last year;  i'm in the 'fasthonda', and its at WGI.  there was heavy rain before this rungroup;  lots of puddled up water on the track.  slippery conditions.....   i didn't run my rain tires;  instead, i was running an old old set of bald A032R tires.  it made for difficult driving, which demanded really smooth inputs, especially with the brakes and throttle....

http://www.vimeo.com/1461897

the honda is much much more demanding to drive in the rain;  it doesn't have ABS (the Probe does);  it is very light (under 2200 lbs with me in it).  it has twice as much power as the probe, and shorter gearing.  its a real handful in the rain, and moreso when not running the rain tires!   but, its very very good practice for me, and makes me lethally fast in the probe in the rain...

bob t was up there in front;  i believe he was running on his dry tires (michi pilot sports, right bob?).  bob definitely is better in the braking zones;  i think it has much to do with the different car designs we are driving:  his rear engined, rear driven car is actually able to use alot of its rear weight bias to its advantage when braking in the wet;  my FWD car is basically using only its front axle to do the stopping;  so little weight in the rear that it doesnt really help....   i was threshold braking everywhere, and lap by lap was trying to shorten the brakezones -- i kept seeing bob in my rearview mirror (i couldn't shake the bastard!!!);  he would gain every brake zone, and also would gain exiting the sharper, tighter turns.  it seemed my advantage was in the faster sweeping turns (i'd pull away pretty good in T2 and up thru the esses and across the top of the hill).  we were about even in the 'medium speed' turns.  if you listen to the audio, you'll hear the wheels locking up in many brakezones;  you can hear the engine suddenly go off song;  that is when the front wheel speed is suddenly going from high speeds to 0 and then back to high speeds (lock, unlock, lock, etc).  i was trying very hard to put down the power carefully, and gradually -- you can also hear the front wheels clawing for traction and spinning when exiting some of the turns;  i was short shifting and part throttling it most everywhere...

you might wonder why i'm driving off line and seem to be 'all over the place'.  its because i was searching for the best grip, and in a bunch of places, that seemed to be off the 'normal' line...  sometimes its faster that way in the rain!    

the stupid battery in the camera gave out;  about a lap after the camera died i locked up and had to go straight at the bus stop (you can see one lap before that where i went beyond deep into the brake zone, and had to cut back thru the cones to make the turn! (this is something i ALWAYS preach when teaching:  if you can't get the car slowed down enough, DON'T TURN IN.  just keep braking at threshold in a straight line, and when you slow to the turn in speed, well, if you are still on the track, THEN turn it.  it might be SUPER late, but its the best bet.  you just need to be cool and calm!     -- the car was slipping and gliding that entire way into that braking zone, and you can see where george hadn't been able to get his car slowed, either.  looking at it now, i think i should have been driving all the way down the right hand side approaching the bus stop;  i think that oil was perking up out of the pavement on the normal line, because it seemed abnormally slick in the brakezone up there, and maybe was even getting worse, lap by lap (isn't hindsite great?)....

if bob and i had had our rain tires on, we probably would have been able to slice off about 25 secs per lap;  we could have really flown around the track, but would that have been a benefit?  i definitely learned more with the lower adhesion tires, and had more fun, too.  if it had truly been a race for me, i'd have put the rains on without a second thought;  everyone else on the grid would have had them on, and of course i want to win!  that's the nice thing about a DE weekend -- its low stress, and there is no winner or loser, and there was no frantic tire changing that weekend!  lol!

enjoy,

todd

PS   i'll type out the story about the peanut oil sometime this week.  that was a neat rungroup experience!